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	<title>Comments on: Learn How to Rappel: Part 2, Setup</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.itstactical.com/2009/07/15/learn-how-to-rappel-part-2-setup/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/climbing/learn-how-to-rappel-part-2-setup/</link>
	<description>Imminent Threat Solutions</description>
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		<title>By: Abebob</title>
		<link>http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/climbing/learn-how-to-rappel-part-2-setup/comment-page-1/#comment-56080</link>
		<dc:creator>Abebob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itstactical.com/?p=952#comment-56080</guid>
		<description>You really should take this video and tutorial down, it is extremely dangerous and misleading on how to build proper anchors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You really should take this video and tutorial down, it is extremely dangerous and misleading on how to build proper anchors.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: mike</title>
		<link>http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/climbing/learn-how-to-rappel-part-2-setup/comment-page-1/#comment-56079</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itstactical.com/?p=952#comment-56079</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m pretty appalled that you have left this up on your site for so long. 

You&#039;re trying to teach strangers on the internet how to safely rappel yet you don&#039;t know how to do so yourself.

Others have pointed out the many things wrong with the way you have set this up yet still it&#039;s here for others to &#039;learn&#039; from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty appalled that you have left this up on your site for so long. </p>
<p>You&#8217;re trying to teach strangers on the internet how to safely rappel yet you don&#8217;t know how to do so yourself.</p>
<p>Others have pointed out the many things wrong with the way you have set this up yet still it&#8217;s here for others to &#8216;learn&#8217; from.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Helix</title>
		<link>http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/climbing/learn-how-to-rappel-part-2-setup/comment-page-1/#comment-52493</link>
		<dc:creator>Helix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2011 23:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itstactical.com/?p=952#comment-52493</guid>
		<description>&quot;Luckily in this configuration (equilateral triangle) each point of the triangle only experiences 1 times the load.&quot;  Sorry I missed how you backed up your anchor.  You actually amplified the force of your load considerably at each bolt by creating an angel greater than 90 Degrees when you tied your webbing to the rope.  You would have been better off without the backup at all as it created more force on your primary anchors.  

A better configuration again would have been isolated strands from your tree to each bolt, but even then you would have to take care not to create cross loaded caribiners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Luckily in this configuration (equilateral triangle) each point of the triangle only experiences 1 times the load.&#8221;  Sorry I missed how you backed up your anchor.  You actually amplified the force of your load considerably at each bolt by creating an angel greater than 90 Degrees when you tied your webbing to the rope.  You would have been better off without the backup at all as it created more force on your primary anchors.  </p>
<p>A better configuration again would have been isolated strands from your tree to each bolt, but even then you would have to take care not to create cross loaded caribiners.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Helix</title>
		<link>http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/climbing/learn-how-to-rappel-part-2-setup/comment-page-1/#comment-52492</link>
		<dc:creator>Helix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:52:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itstactical.com/?p=952#comment-52492</guid>
		<description>Since you know the issues with the &quot;American Tirangle&quot; also called the Death Triangle or Yosemite Death Triangle, a better approach to this anchor would be if you created a load sharing anchor out of your webbing.  By creating two isolated anchor strands you would be able to share the load between the two points.  As you set it up, you have created a load amplifying anchor.  Luckily in this configuration (equilateral tirangle) each point of the triangle only experiences 1 times the load.  but if you lengthen the top side of the triangle (shorten the loop of the figure 8) the load is actually amplified at the weekest point, the knot, this amplification becomes extreme as the triangle flattens out and failure is more than possible as the rappeller transitions over the edge (the highest force experienced in the rappel.)  

In your set up, a force strong enough to fail one of the anchor points would generate an even greater shock load on the other bolt and likely fail it too.  While you are correct that a failure in your rope would be the end of this excersize a failure in one of the achor bolts need not be catastrophic, unless you set it up so that one failure will cause the other to fail as you have here. 

On another note, it also appears you have split a figure 8. Most knots weaken a rope by about 1/3.  A split figure 8 is more like 1/2 to 2/3 of the strength of the rope compromised.  Add to that an easy error to create, amplification of the load  from a flattened triangel, and it is a recipe for failure. This would be an example where multiple cascading failures causing a catastophic failure. 
 A boline, with a  backup would be a much better choice in this situation as it would not be weakend by pulling it in two directions as the figure 8 is.  Several variations of the boline will create good multi-point anchor systems as well.  

When we design rope systems we should always do our best to isolate possible points of failure so that they will not cause catastrophic falure.  Ingraining this philosophy from the begining of training is the best way to encourage safe technique.  As in all disciplines coming back to eliminate bad habits is always harder than starting with good habits.  

This setup probably worked just fine when you set it up for the article and it will probably work fine 99 times out of 100.  It is that 100th time where the unexpected happens.  Like you tie the figure 8 too short and create more amplification of the load and one of the bolts isnt as rock solid as you thought... and POP! we have a problem.  If we start by eliminating the possiblities of those failures we set ourselves up for success instead of failure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div style="background-color:#FFFFCC !important"><p>Since you know the issues with the &#8220;American Tirangle&#8221; also called the Death Triangle or Yosemite Death Triangle, a better approach to this anchor would be if you created a load sharing anchor out of your webbing.  By creating two isolated anchor strands you would be able to share the load between the two points.  As you set it up, you have created a load amplifying anchor.  Luckily in this configuration (equilateral tirangle) each point of the triangle only experiences 1 times the load.  but if you lengthen the top side of the triangle (shorten the loop of the figure 8) the load is actually amplified at the weekest point, the knot, this amplification becomes extreme as the triangle flattens out and failure is more than possible as the rappeller transitions over the edge (the highest force experienced in the rappel.)  </p>
<p>In your set up, a force strong enough to fail one of the anchor points would generate an even greater shock load on the other bolt and likely fail it too.  While you are correct that a failure in your rope would be the end of this excersize a failure in one of the achor bolts need not be catastrophic, unless you set it up so that one failure will cause the other to fail as you have here. </p>
<p>On another note, it also appears you have split a figure 8. Most knots weaken a rope by about 1/3.  A split figure 8 is more like 1/2 to 2/3 of the strength of the rope compromised.  Add to that an easy error to create, amplification of the load  from a flattened triangel, and it is a recipe for failure. This would be an example where multiple cascading failures causing a catastophic failure.<br />
 A boline, with a  backup would be a much better choice in this situation as it would not be weakend by pulling it in two directions as the figure 8 is.  Several variations of the boline will create good multi-point anchor systems as well.  </p>
<p>When we design rope systems we should always do our best to isolate possible points of failure so that they will not cause catastrophic falure.  Ingraining this philosophy from the begining of training is the best way to encourage safe technique.  As in all disciplines coming back to eliminate bad habits is always harder than starting with good habits.  </p>
<p>This setup probably worked just fine when you set it up for the article and it will probably work fine 99 times out of 100.  It is that 100th time where the unexpected happens.  Like you tie the figure 8 too short and create more amplification of the load and one of the bolts isnt as rock solid as you thought&#8230; and POP! we have a problem.  If we start by eliminating the possiblities of those failures we set ourselves up for success instead of failure.</p>
</div>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/climbing/learn-how-to-rappel-part-2-setup/comment-page-1/#comment-51648</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2011 21:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itstactical.com/?p=952#comment-51648</guid>
		<description>One of the first things I learned when setting up anchors was to never use fabric on fabric. Your webbing that ties directly to the rope should have a carabiner between them. If one or both the bolted anchors blew the friction between the two could cause severe damage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the first things I learned when setting up anchors was to never use fabric on fabric. Your webbing that ties directly to the rope should have a carabiner between them. If one or both the bolted anchors blew the friction between the two could cause severe damage.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joseph Lujan</title>
		<link>http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/climbing/learn-how-to-rappel-part-2-setup/comment-page-1/#comment-11158</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Lujan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Mar 2010 00:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itstactical.com/?p=952#comment-11158</guid>
		<description>When I was in search and rescue and we&#039;d train on bolts at a local cliff, we&#039;d use a double loop or &quot;bunny ear&quot; figure eight with a couple of carabiners to even out the pressure on the bolts. 
I think that would simplify this rig pretty well. What do you think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was in search and rescue and we&#8217;d train on bolts at a local cliff, we&#8217;d use a double loop or &#8220;bunny ear&#8221; figure eight with a couple of carabiners to even out the pressure on the bolts.<br />
I think that would simplify this rig pretty well. What do you think?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Diego</title>
		<link>http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/climbing/learn-how-to-rappel-part-2-setup/comment-page-1/#comment-6078</link>
		<dc:creator>Diego</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 20:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itstactical.com/?p=952#comment-6078</guid>
		<description>oh right on thats a new knot i had never used. could you use rope instead of nylon webbing to make the back up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh right on thats a new knot i had never used. could you use rope instead of nylon webbing to make the back up?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ITS Admin</title>
		<link>http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/climbing/learn-how-to-rappel-part-2-setup/comment-page-1/#comment-5949</link>
		<dc:creator>ITS Admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itstactical.com/?p=952#comment-5949</guid>
		<description>Diego,

On the webbing portion that backs up the system, a tape knot was used http://www.itstactical.com/2009/05/11/knot-of-the-week-tape-knot/ and it does have overhand safeties on both sides.

Thanks for the comment!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diego,</p>
<p>On the webbing portion that backs up the system, a tape knot was used <a href="http://www.itstactical.com/2009/05/11/knot-of-the-week-tape-knot/" rel="nofollow">http://www.itstactical.com/2009/05/11/knot-of-the-week-tape-knot/</a> and it does have overhand safeties on both sides.</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Diego</title>
		<link>http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/climbing/learn-how-to-rappel-part-2-setup/comment-page-1/#comment-5915</link>
		<dc:creator>Diego</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itstactical.com/?p=952#comment-5915</guid>
		<description>Hey im not an expert at rappelling or climbing for that matter but i do it for fun once or twice a week. i have a question about the redundant diamond back up system that you built with the nylon webbing. when you tied the two ends to create the closed loop what kind of know did you use? and i was thinking could you maybe use 66mm rope like one that you buy by the foot or something and use a square knot with an overhand safety on both sides to finish off the redundant safety anchor? Thanks!!1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey im not an expert at rappelling or climbing for that matter but i do it for fun once or twice a week. i have a question about the redundant diamond back up system that you built with the nylon webbing. when you tied the two ends to create the closed loop what kind of know did you use? and i was thinking could you maybe use 66mm rope like one that you buy by the foot or something and use a square knot with an overhand safety on both sides to finish off the redundant safety anchor? Thanks!!1</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ITS Admin</title>
		<link>http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/climbing/learn-how-to-rappel-part-2-setup/comment-page-1/#comment-2919</link>
		<dc:creator>ITS Admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.itstactical.com/?p=952#comment-2919</guid>
		<description>Alex,

Thank you for the link and information. We&#039;re aware of the american triangle, and have spoke about it in this article. We&#039;re looking to do an update of these rappelling articles to offer other ways of setting up a rappel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex,</p>
<p>Thank you for the link and information. We&#8217;re aware of the american triangle, and have spoke about it in this article. We&#8217;re looking to do an update of these rappelling articles to offer other ways of setting up a rappel.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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