Comments on: Land Navigation: Pace Count http://www.itstactical.com/2009/07/16/land-navigation-pace-count/ Imminent Threat Solutions Wed, 08 Sep 2010 21:12:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Chris http://www.itstactical.com/2009/07/16/land-navigation-pace-count/comment-page-1/#comment-24038 Chris Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:14:40 +0000 http://www.itstactical.com/?p=1005#comment-24038 My question CDT Gillies is why would you even try to pace count 8K's, set up left and right boundaries and then a backstop behind your destination point, then use terrain association to get within 500m and then use a pace count. Trying to pace count 8K is pointless and leaves lots of room for error. This is just a suggestion My question CDT Gillies is why would you even try to pace count 8K’s, set up left and right boundaries and then a backstop behind your destination point, then use terrain association to get within 500m and then use a pace count. Trying to pace count 8K is pointless and leaves lots of room for error. This is just a suggestion

]]> By: TacZen http://www.itstactical.com/2009/07/16/land-navigation-pace-count/comment-page-1/#comment-4503 TacZen Sun, 03 Jan 2010 04:22:46 +0000 http://www.itstactical.com/?p=1005#comment-4503 Cdt Gillies: Absolutely, every terrain and time has to be addressed differently. Terrain Associate here, Pace count there etc... In combat, it isn't enough to know where you started and where you are at the end, you have to know EXACTLY where you are EVERY second. Cause if you make contact, you better be able to call for fire which is going to require first knowing you exact location and figuring it out while getting shot at. Figuring out a grid location using your Azimith and where you are currently in your pace count can be a challenge in the middle of a firefight, just hope you can see somehting VERY promimate that is also on your map and addjust from that... Oh, and thanks, it has been 15-20 years, but I've done Patrols in your Country and it was wonderful (though quite Tick invested). Get times and you guys treated us wonderefully. If I can ever return the favor, let me know. Be safe. Cdt Gillies:
Absolutely, every terrain and time has to be addressed differently. Terrain Associate here, Pace count there etc… In combat, it isn’t enough to know where you started and where you are at the end, you have to know EXACTLY where you are EVERY second. Cause if you make contact, you better be able to call for fire which is going to require first knowing you exact location and figuring it out while getting shot at. Figuring out a grid location using your Azimith and where you are currently in your pace count can be a challenge in the middle of a firefight, just hope you can see somehting VERY promimate that is also on your map and addjust from that…
Oh, and thanks, it has been 15-20 years, but I’ve done Patrols in your Country and it was wonderful (though quite Tick invested). Get times and you guys treated us wonderefully. If I can ever return the favor, let me know. Be safe.

]]> By: Cdt Gillies http://www.itstactical.com/2009/07/16/land-navigation-pace-count/comment-page-1/#comment-3390 Cdt Gillies Tue, 08 Dec 2009 07:34:24 +0000 http://www.itstactical.com/?p=1005#comment-3390 TacZen, You're right about the terrain association, on my latest cadet camp during our 48 hour exercise, my section didnt bother pacing during the day, we just relied on terrain. Now at night, that's a different story... TacZen,

You’re right about the terrain association, on my latest cadet camp during our 48 hour exercise, my section didnt bother pacing during the day, we just relied on terrain. Now at night, that’s a different story…

]]> By: TacZen http://www.itstactical.com/2009/07/16/land-navigation-pace-count/comment-page-1/#comment-3387 TacZen Tue, 08 Dec 2009 05:17:32 +0000 http://www.itstactical.com/?p=1005#comment-3387 Pacing is a challenging skill on many levels. First, tactically, it is difficult to keep a pace count and still focus on your surroundings. If your in a team / squad one person can be designated the paceman. But in a tactical environment it is your movement, body position, steps etc... that make a difference, you can just stand up and walk a line. Complicate that if you'er in a small team (such as a Scout Sniper or Forward Observer) and spend much of your crawling or stalking... I generally rely on Terrain association (which has many challenges in and of itself (triple canoupe or alpine when you can't see the terrain around you past a very feet). In a desert environment a solid pace count is a MUST (I still have a map that is solid tan with zero features and 2 total countour lines on it... you have nothing, nothing to do a resection etc... all you have is your pace). But in any terrain with contour and/or steady features, association is VERY accurate (usually more so than a GPS). But you have to be very famuliar with how a map "looks" and how that looks on the real ground. Finally, by far biggest mistake in getting a pace count. Up/Down hill... as you said, "as the crow flys" distance on a map and actual distince on an incline are different. SO... simple taking a 100 meter cord and laying it out up a hill and getting a count (such as flat ground count = 60, uphill = 110...) simply doesn't work. Example, you walk strait for 100 meters (60 paces) on flat ground and travel 100 meters on a map. Now you come to a cliff-face (90 degrees strait up for 100 meters) and pretending you can walk strait up (assualt climber up!!!) you use your "uphill pace" of 110 and travel 100 meters up, BUT... you have now traceled ZERO meters on the map, you haven't moved at all. A regualur hill/mountain has this same propblem to the degree of it's slope incline/decline. What I see many do is get a "uphill pace", measure the distance on the map (say 300 meters) and assume they have to travel their "uphill pace" x3 to get to their end point... simple not true (I have seen it taught this way many times to include NASAR (National Organization of Search and Rescue) and many others... This IS a way to calcualte a pace across incline and decline but it involves determineing actual distance (not strait line distance) by plotting on a seperate peice of paper each contour line that crosses your bearing then converting that into a line graph that creates a side view (as opposed to the down view of a map) of your terrain, then measuring the curved line to get an actual distance traveled (this is also a meathod we use to determine "dead space" of vision from a particular point overlooking an area (both for defense purposes and to know how to walk up a anothers position unseen). It is a time consuming meathod, can be complicated over long travel (such as a week long Patrol traveling 8-12 or more hours a day... slow moving I assure you). better to terrain associate if you are able. Good news is, in mountainous terrain, it is generally easier to terrain associate... but much of that depends on the age and accuracy of your map (but that is another subject). Good luck and be safe! Pacing is a challenging skill on many levels.
First, tactically, it is difficult to keep a pace count and still focus on your surroundings. If your in a team / squad one person can be designated the paceman. But in a tactical environment it is your movement, body position, steps etc… that make a difference, you can just stand up and walk a line. Complicate that if you’er in a small team (such as a Scout Sniper or Forward Observer) and spend much of your crawling or stalking…
I generally rely on Terrain association (which has many challenges in and of itself (triple canoupe or alpine when you can’t see the terrain around you past a very feet). In a desert environment a solid pace count is a MUST (I still have a map that is solid tan with zero features and 2 total countour lines on it… you have nothing, nothing to do a resection etc… all you have is your pace). But in any terrain with contour and/or steady features, association is VERY accurate (usually more so than a GPS). But you have to be very famuliar with how a map “looks” and how that looks on the real ground.
Finally, by far biggest mistake in getting a pace count. Up/Down hill… as you said, “as the crow flys” distance on a map and actual distince on an incline are different. SO… simple taking a 100 meter cord and laying it out up a hill and getting a count (such as flat ground count = 60, uphill = 110…) simply doesn’t work. Example, you walk strait for 100 meters (60 paces) on flat ground and travel 100 meters on a map. Now you come to a cliff-face (90 degrees strait up for 100 meters) and pretending you can walk strait up (assualt climber up!!!) you use your “uphill pace” of 110 and travel 100 meters up, BUT… you have now traceled ZERO meters on the map, you haven’t moved at all. A regualur hill/mountain has this same propblem to the degree of it’s slope incline/decline. What I see many do is get a “uphill pace”, measure the distance on the map (say 300 meters) and assume they have to travel their “uphill pace” x3 to get to their end point… simple not true (I have seen it taught this way many times to include NASAR (National Organization of Search and Rescue) and many others…
This IS a way to calcualte a pace across incline and decline but it involves determineing actual distance (not strait line distance) by plotting on a seperate peice of paper each contour line that crosses your bearing then converting that into a line graph that creates a side view (as opposed to the down view of a map) of your terrain, then measuring the curved line to get an actual distance traveled (this is also a meathod we use to determine “dead space” of vision from a particular point overlooking an area (both for defense purposes and to know how to walk up a anothers position unseen). It is a time consuming meathod, can be complicated over long travel (such as a week long Patrol traveling 8-12 or more hours a day… slow moving I assure you). better to terrain associate if you are able. Good news is, in mountainous terrain, it is generally easier to terrain associate… but much of that depends on the age and accuracy of your map (but that is another subject). Good luck and be safe!

]]> By: Cdt Gillies http://www.itstactical.com/2009/07/16/land-navigation-pace-count/comment-page-1/#comment-2458 Cdt Gillies Thu, 22 Oct 2009 07:06:25 +0000 http://www.itstactical.com/?p=1005#comment-2458 Pacing can be a pain in the arse over extended periods. As an army cadet, i don't (normally)have access to a fancy gps to tell me how far i've gone. When you have to pace an 8km nav leg, it kan get a bit annoying (considering that 8km works out as about 10 000 paces in bushland!). Pacing can be a pain in the arse over extended periods. As an army cadet, i don’t (normally)have access to a fancy gps to tell me how far i’ve gone. When you have to pace an 8km nav leg, it kan get a bit annoying (considering that 8km works out as about 10 000 paces in bushland!).

]]> By: ITS Admin http://www.itstactical.com/2009/07/16/land-navigation-pace-count/comment-page-1/#comment-276 ITS Admin Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:37:50 +0000 http://www.itstactical.com/?p=1005#comment-276 LOL I know exactly what you mean. Gotta keep that log going! ~ Bryan LOL I know exactly what you mean. Gotta keep that log going! ~ Bryan

]]> By: TheNance http://www.itstactical.com/2009/07/16/land-navigation-pace-count/comment-page-1/#comment-274 TheNance Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:21:11 +0000 http://www.itstactical.com/?p=1005#comment-274 Emphasis on the "write it down" part, haha. What was it again? 60? or was it 65? Was that open terrain or through brush? Hmmm.... Emphasis on the “write it down” part, haha. What was it again? 60? or was it 65? Was that open terrain or through brush? Hmmm….

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