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EDC Non or less-lethal carry

EDC Non-lethal Taser Pepper Spray Less than lethal Baton

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#1 ARM_Alaska

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:44 AM

Curious if anyone in the ITS community EDC's a non or less-lethal weapon. Living in Alaska we are permitted to open or conceal carry firearms which is great but I have been in situations where lethal force would be strongly discouraged, if not outright illegal. In those instances it would have been nice to have an alternative defensive device to turn to but at times I feel it is frowned upon to be carrying something like an X26 Taser or canister of spray. What are your thoughts and/or opinions on this type of EDC?

Keep in mind that up here in Alaska there are many times where the nearest LEO is several minutes if not hours away. Also, I should mention that most non-lethal weapons are entirely legal here.

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#2 Armitage12

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:20 PM

I'm in the university world. Students (especially female students but not exclusively so) sometimes feel it necessary to carry pepper spray, and I see it sold quite regularly at university bookstores. That said, I cannot recall an instance of someone I knew actually taking the time to train on carry, use and follow-up after use of pepper spray. I quite distinctly remember walking to campus many years ago behind a very attractive woman who clipped her pepper spray to the zipper pull on her backpack. Which was on her back. Closer to me than her.

My personal preference based on my own lifestyle (middle age, young children frequently in tow) is to avoid situations and locations that would necessitate carrying a personal non-lethal weapon. I have considered it on longer trip away from home for certain circumstances, but I would want to know absolutely the local laws before I carried in those places. But I would be loath to let a situation get to the point that a non-lethal weapon used at close range would be my only option. My official view on my EDC knife is that it is not a weapon but a tool (and indeed the state takes that same view). Between that and a pen, I could poke someone something fierce. But not a weapon :up:

#3 ARM_Alaska

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 01:58 PM

I'm in the university world. Students (especially female students but not exclusively so) sometimes feel it necessary to carry pepper spray, and I see it sold quite regularly at university bookstores. That said, I cannot recall an instance of someone I knew actually taking the time to train on carry, use and follow-up after use of pepper spray. I quite distinctly remember walking to campus many years ago behind a very attractive woman who clipped her pepper spray to the zipper pull on her backpack. Which was on her back. Closer to me than her.

My personal preference based on my own lifestyle (middle age, young children frequently in tow) is to avoid situations and locations that would necessitate carrying a personal non-lethal weapon. I have considered it on longer trip away from home for certain circumstances, but I would want to know absolutely the local laws before I carried in those places. But I would be loath to let a situation get to the point that a non-lethal weapon used at close range would be my only option. My official view on my EDC knife is that it is not a weapon but a tool (and indeed the state takes that same view). Between that and a pen, I could poke someone something fierce. But not a weapon :up:


Could't agree more with your view on knives.. very good to have on you for those things that must be poked with ferocity. I'm not entirely sure how the state of Alaska views personal defense with edged weapons.. Would certainly be worth looking in to though. I also do my best to avoid situations where I would need to use a non-lethal device but unfortunately where I live there is a VERY large concentration of drunkards (day or night, weekday and weekend) who get all sorts of fighty and have a history of visiously attacking indivuduals who are just walking through minding their own business. Also there tend to be some (not many but enough to worry) extremely hot-headed soldiers around town who seem to always be looking for a fight after drinking. I'll give a short example from personal experience;

A few months back I was enjoying an early morning breakfast with a friend at Denny's before heading out to a defensive shooting class and there was a large group of soldiers who had just come from the bar.. they started getting rowdy and were asked by the staff to cool down. One of the soldiers took offense to this and began flipping out, threw his plate against a wall and pushed a waitress. His buddies were not doing anything to quell the situation at this time. He locked on to a black gentleman and started yelling racist slurs and remarks. The black gentleman stood to leave and the drunk soldier pushed him down into the booth and raised his arm like he was going to hit him. At that moment both my friend and I stood to intervene and I instinctively had my hand on my sidearm, ready to draw on this asshole which would have been entirely legal at this point (In alaska you may use lethal force in defense of yourself or others when necessary to prevent death, serious physical inury, kidnapping etc... you may also present your firearm in order to make a citizens arrest which, in Alaska, is probably 100x more common than in the lower 48) Luckily the guys buddies finally grabbed him up and restrained him. It took almost 15 minutes after that for the state troopers to show up and arrest the soldier for pushing the waitress and causing a disturbance.

So I believe there is enough need here in Alaska to carry a non-lethal weapon and just hope you don't ever need it.

Edited by ARM_Alaska, 07 October 2013 - 02:00 PM.

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#4 longshot0927

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:17 PM

I keep a kimber pepper blaster on me where I can't carry for whatever reason, but I also like to have it availible as a les than leathal option as well. http://www.pepperblaster.com/

Edited by longshot0927, 18 October 2013 - 12:18 PM.


#5 SacRyan

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:03 PM

Something to contend with in a less-lethal and lethal force carry EDC...

"Why did you suddenly go to 'lethal' force?" (Hostage situation??) "Clearly you wanted to kill the attacker."

Formerly of California, the thought process there was that a less lethal option would almost always require deployment prior to a lethal force option regardless of situation if you carried one. Idiotic, sure but a reality in some jurisdictions.

Yes, I carry a knife, it opens mail and apples really well, I'll stick to avoidance and de-escalation as my less lethal alternatives.
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#6 ARM_Alaska

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:20 PM

"Why did you suddenly go to 'lethal' force?" (Hostage situation??) "Clearly you wanted to kill the attacker."

Formerly of California, the thought process there was that a less lethal option would almost always require deployment prior to a lethal force option regardless of situation if you carried one. Idiotic, sure but a reality in some jurisdictions.


That thought didn't even cross my mind.. and with families of scumbags lawyering up and winning cases more frequently it should definitely have been a consideration on my part. Great advice!

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#7 Badgerman

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:52 PM

One suggestion may be the ASP Key Defender. It is a key chain pepper spray device, and can also be used as a kubotan. It holds, I think 2 oz of spray. I have one, and been fielding it for a month now. Plus, it's nice and handy to just stuff it in my pocket when my hands are full. I believe it was $32.00 on amazon.
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#8 creding

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 05:33 AM

You might think about a very bright flash light, especially if you can program it to go to the strobe function first. He can't hit what he can't see, and a bright light will often do that, even In daylight. If you can blind, disorient, or distract the attacker, it may give you time to employ other options, like feet. Plus, you will already have a miji club in your hand should that not work.
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#9 ARM_Alaska

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:04 AM

You might think about a very bright flash light, especially if you can program it to go to the strobe function first. He can't hit what he can't see, and a bright light will often do that, even In daylight. If you can blind, disorient, or distract the attacker, it may give you time to employ other options, like feet. Plus, you will already have a miji club in your hand should that not work.


That's exactly why I carry my 850 lumen Fenix PD35! Amazing output for such a small flashlight and the strobe function is definitely disorienting!
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#10 sjoobbani

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 02:22 PM

If you're really concerned, you could get one of those expandable batons. They're pretty compact. But honestly, it's just a stick, and can be lethal if you don't have proper training, get carried away, or if that's your only chance to use it.
It sucks to say this, but there's cases out there where if someone had used lethal force, the legal process would have gone by a lot smoother, but they uses 'less lethal' force which apparently left some sort of injury 'disability' to the attacker...
To me, I don't see how it makes sense.

#11 hamiamham

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 12:17 AM

I am in no way an expert on this topic. That being said I would not be that keen on letting someone get close enough to me where a knife, asp/baton, etc would be effective. I've never heard this proposed before but why not have a partial load in your sidearm of a "non" or "less leathal" load? Yes they are expensive and yes they are only good for 25-50 feet on average but someone who is not completely out of his mind on pcp or something is really going to think twice after getting slammed in the chest, face, etc with a rubber bullet as it packs a punch while generally not being a killer. One could even load up a few non-leathal rounds followed by something "less" leathal followed by the real thing. I've never heard this proposed before so I would love to hear some feedback on it. As for pepper spray unless you are outdoors there is a HIGH likelyhood you as the spray-er are at least partially effected if you let it loose indoors. Not ideal. I also don't love the idea of something that can - perhaps - easily be taken from you and then used against you like a knife potentially can. Granted even with an empty gun someone can crack you over the head with it but once you expend the bullets most - I think - would consider it a paper weight.

#12 mangeface

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:33 AM

I have a can of oc spray I keep at my place to keep my friends in line when they get rowdy (and had to use it once). I won't use it as an EDC on the fact of if I have to use it, I believe that it will be a situation where lethal force would be authorized, therefore the pistol is coming out.
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#13 DeathwatchDoc

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:07 AM

I have a can of oc spray I keep at my place to keep my friends in line when they get rowdy (and had to use it once). I won't use it as an EDC on the fact of if I have to use it, I believe that it will be a situation where lethal force would be authorized, therefore the pistol is coming out.


This is exactly how I see the situation. Any situation where I would be reaching for OC I would probably be within my states lethal force laws. So yeah... I totally agree with Mangeface.

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#14 Beaucoup VC

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 02:37 AM

Yes, I carry a knife, it opens mail and apples really well, I'll stick to avoidance and de-escalation as my less lethal alternatives.

 

My exact sentiments. I don't mind getting my hands dirty, but I would rather not lose my freedom in criminal court and my life's savings in civil court.


Edited by Beaucoup VC, 22 December 2013 - 02:37 AM.


#15 Armitage12

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 08:14 AM

I have a can of oc spray I keep at my place to keep my friends in line when they get rowdy (and had to use it once). I won't use it as an EDC on the fact of if I have to use it, I believe that it will be a situation where lethal force would be authorized, therefore the pistol is coming out.


Wow, you hang out with rough friends! :-)

#16 B3dlam

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:16 PM

I carry 'mah mits' people often forget that you are carring less lethal with you all the time 24/7.  I am no martial arts expert I just have a few basic things they taught along with my base security training when i was filling that billet just a few pressure points and simple strikes really.  I am not looking to get into a tussle but I have been in situations where the pressure points for instance served me well.  The situation that comes to mind is a fight between two drunk marines.  One got the other into a choke hold and refused to let go the other guy was starting to black out when I intervened taking control of the offenders head and rather forcefully applying a pressure point it took about 1-3 seconds for his drunk mind to realize what was happening then he turned into a puppy dog both hands up in the air.  As soon as I get back to the real world next summer I plan to look into a krav maga school to further my training.  Don't ever discount the less lethal you always have with you that being said your results may vary depending on your own build, conditioning, and per-existing injuries.  


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#17 Gomer

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 03:52 AM

I agree with B3dlam, use your hands and brains for less lethal. Keep a bright LED flashlight with you, I carry a Fenix PD35 and it is extremely bright. Disorient, displace yourself and attack/flee. 


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#18 PsychoFish

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 08:26 PM

In my vehicle I carry a Kimber/Piaxion JPX launcher. One of our HMFIC pretty much desinged the thing, and certified a handful of us to use them at work for a testing phase. Unfortunatly, because we were so few the other HMFIC deemed it not worthy of recert after four years and scrapped the whole thing. Pretty much its an OC "gun" that fired a jet burst up to 21 feet. It was awesome! Anyways, I carry that in my center consol just incase any beggers get a little too pushy.


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#19 ekufd13

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 07:58 AM

Not a usually fan of the less lethal option in my EDC, Think it opens you up to litigation if you are ever faced with a situation where you have to use lethal force but had the lesser option.

 

I know there are people out there who take the stance of "Well if my life is in danger I'll deal with the lawsuit later." Agreed. But how many lawsuits have we all seen against civilians and law enforcement alike where someone legally protects themselves with deadly force only to get sued and sometimes lose their house later because of a judge/jury ruling. These days it's not just a maybe thing, you take someones life you will get sued.

 

I also have the opinion that almost every situation can be handled by disengaging the situation, wether it be by deescalation or escape. I'm just not going to get in a fist fight with someone, it's stupid and not like in the movies where everyone bleeds on each other then goes home. I will if my life is in danger, but I will be fighting my way to my firearm. I just don't see a time where I can say, "Ok I'm going to stay in this dangerous situation and use less less lethal". I don't see the middle ground, its either run or gun. 

 

The one exception that I have found and the reason I do carry less lethal is travel to places where conceal carry is more dangerous than not. Like NYC. I know many people can argue that if you conceal right then no one will ever know, and that they never leave home without their sidearm. Completely understand. However, knowing the laws and penalties involved, I'm personally not willing to take the risk and the odds are I am astronomically more likely to be involved in a situation where I get caught with an illegal firearm than in a gun battle for my life. Those are the sad and scary days I carry pepper spray in my EDC.



#20 mangeface

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 11:47 AM

Wow, you hang out with rough friends! :-)


Nah. Not really. Anyone can get rowdy when drinking. It's when I tell them to calm down and thet fail to do so is when I intervene.

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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: EDC, Non-lethal, Taser, Pepper Spray, Less than lethal, Baton

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