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How fast can you drop a home invader?

K-9 home invasion

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#1 Coydog1254

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 07:45 PM

Ok, I have made this argument for years so let me ask you guys. First a very brief background on me. I have training and battle proven skills. I am a Big second amendment guy and I am 100% on board with dropping door kickers. Assuming the magic number is a whole 5 seconds (I am being very generous with that number), could you get to a gun and in a position to defend your family? This is assuming they don't ring your door bell and take you or your wife down right off the bat.

Defense = No hostage situation and no full on gun battle.

Now the reason for my question. How many of you have considered a bite trained personal protection dog? Now I know not a lot of us, myself included, have the disposable income to pay $6k or better for a dog. Here is how you do it on the cheap.

#1 Schutzhund does not equal a "real dog". However it can give you useful tools and insight to training your real dog. Tracking, bite work, and obedience are all you will need to have for a real deal man stopper. The important thing to pay attention to is the drives the helper works through with your dog. Defense is the one you are interested in, prey is fine in the beginning but you are not having the dog chase the guy down the road. Most Schutzhund helpers like to play police dog so convincing them to work on your dogs defense and doing some bites at the doorways and the like will get you a bare bones Tango Down K-9.
(You do not need to be an expert trainer to train bite work, the handler is the dumb end of the leash in this training. You need the best helper you can find.)
#2 DO NOT BUY A PUPPY!!!!
#3 DO NOT BUY A PUPPY!!!!
#4 When you get your 10 to 18 month old dog home. You need to play and play and play some more. Playing and feeding build your bond. This will be roughly a month or when the "newness" wears off.
#5 Work them every chance you get and everywhere you can!
#6 Enjoy your dog and know he does more to prevent a break in and home invasion than the rifle pistol or shotgun you have where ever you keep or stash it.
#7 If you doubt what I said above go camping, wake up at 2 a.m. and engage a moving target even with a flashlight. Wouldn't it be easier to shoot him while the dog holds him still? Just kidding, you can clear the house for anyone else then call ur buddy out.

The joy of watching your dog run someone down and bite them is priceless, enjoy!
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#2 Hidyn

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 06:45 PM

By helper do you mean a handler qualified to train Schutzhund dogs, or a Schutzhund dog itself?

Your posts on this topic are making me consider getting a working dog.

#3 B3dlam

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 02:42 PM

I have strongly been considering getting a Giant Schnauzer and doing schutzhund with it that being said.   That being said a dog wouldn't ever replace my firearms but every supplemental tool you can get helps. 


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#4 Coydog1254

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 06:30 PM

Sorry guys I forgot to check follow this topic.

Help = The guy wearing the sleeve.

If you want the dog for working it is best to visit a club or working kennel to help find the right dog. Again I strongly recommend not going with a puppy. They are cute and typically cost less but if you get the wrong one you are out money and time. You can also look into French Ring Sports and Mondio Ring. I am not as familiar with those two but good working dogs come out of both of them.

I have strongly been considering getting a Giant Schnauzer and doing schutzhund with it that being said.   That being said a dog wouldn't ever replace my firearms but every supplemental tool you can get helps.


My dogs are purely supplemental to my firearm especially where guys with guns are concerned. However my dogs can alert to those body language signs that I don't pick up on so easily anymore. I trust his judgement, he knows what a threat is and is social in every way. You may fool me but you can't help but telegraph those shit head thoughts through body language and a dog reads that faster than you read stop on a stop sign. My dog gets uneasy I do too.

I will be the first to admit that 40% of what I train my dog to do I will probably never need. However if a situation arises that I do need those special skills it will be those skills that keep me and my girls (wife and two daughters) safe. Knowing I can leave him home or in cover with them in the event of earthquake, tornado, flood, civil unrest, or zombie apocalypse gives me piece of mind. He can see, smell, and taste any adverse condition or person before I can. He can track down a lost child or hunt a bad guy to the ends of the earth. God help the poor bastard who makes the mistake of taking one of my kids in a disaster zone because I will be checking on my daughter while my dog shreds him to pieces. If nothing else he is well exercised gets to go more places and do more things than any pet ever will. He likes the training and I do too. He is great to demo the skills I posses as a trainer and of course their is always the best thing. IT IS JUST SO F*!#n Cool!!
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#5 Coydog1254

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 06:31 PM

By the way I am following the topic now and will reply to any questions or comments you have.
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#6 HungrySeaGull

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 02:26 PM

I own a Belgian Malinois, got him at 8 weeks old, and we sleep very good at night. 

 

With any type of protection sports, it really is just a game of tug for the dog. When you see these dogs trained, they are trained first at tug, and then moved to bite sleeves, then training decoys. They do learn important skills, such as to not flinch into the decoy (person in bite suit) when they try to intimidate them with large sticks.

 

There is a difference between a dog biting a bite sleeve, and biting a raw arm, many police dogs have had issues with getting to the perp and just nose punching them, because they do not see a sleeve to grab onto.

 

There is also a fine line between having a guard dog and a social life. We have to constantly manage our dog when we have guests over, and unplanned pop-ins are an impossibility.

 

Malinois are nice, because most have low food drives, and if someone throws a steak on the ground, they are more interested in tugging with the person. I can play tug with my dog while holding onto his food bowl with the other hand, I can also drop food on the ground and play tug with him all around the food.

 

Dogs for personal protection offer the biggest benefit of intimidation, due to barking, which would give you a chance to wake up, and arm, call, escape, or do whatever you feel is necessary at the moment, with the hopes that the dog barking will tell the intruder best not continue with this course of action.



#7 Coydog1254

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 02:34 PM

Very well put hungry. I would recommend poison proofing any dog, pet or working. I don't do party's or large gatherings at my place with my dogs inside. I have outdoor kennels for them to stay in for both their sanity and mine. The sport work is exactly that "a sport" but I always recommend that for new people because a sport dog will give them a feel for what is next. Also if they change their mind sport dogs are generally pretty easy to sell if they have been started right. Excellent POV and thanks for the help.

What kind of work do you do with your dog? (If that info is for public knowledge)
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#8 HungrySeaGull

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 03:02 PM

Thank you Coydog, I am enjoying this thread.

 

I keep my dog on me at all times for the most part. He lives in the home with us and I have even traveled across the country with him, staying odd, and seedy hotel rooms.

 

I got a very good puppy from the breeder, and he has incredible confidence. I feel the best training you can give your dog is agility training, even if you do not compete with the dog, the amount of body awareness the dog learns is un-matchable. I was at facility with him, where they were working on bite work, and with my Dog's agility training, he was leaps and bounds over the other dogs with his speed and tightness of turns.

 

Another great thing to do with your dog is bomb proof them, I take my dog camping where he jumps off the boat and swims around and comes back to me to lift him back up into the boat, where he repeated the process all over again.

 

Some of the most IMPORTANT training I feel you can do with your dog is engagement training, my boy knows that I am the most interesting, fun, important stimuli in his world, so he always looks at me at times of indecision, stress, or arousal......kid on bike...he looks to me first.......deer running out in front of us....looks to me first...unexpected booms...looks to me. This was worked at a very young age and is still worked on (year and a half old curently). Dogs are naturally gifted at reading body language, but you still need to have your dog trained in premack, where they will look to you first.

 

I would never recommend a Malinois to a first time handler, unless they are committed and have the finances available to always be training and working the dog. You could sell the dog, however there are plenty of great rescue organizations that will take the dog for you.

 

Remember either you are training the dog, or the dog is training you.  



#9 Coydog1254

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 06:07 PM

Absolutely Hungry, Mals are not a first time handler dog. I do not push engagement as much on my dog now. Granted the kid on the bike may need it, however he has had a lot of proofing. The boom he is encouraged to direct his attention to for threat assessment. If he sees what he knows to be a threat a command is not needed, he is permitted to engage. I am all for agility and I also do not compete however agility teaches him to negotiate obstacles in the field. My boy, Dax, is also a year and a half. He's a lover and a biter for sure. Very safe dog but does not tolerate schmoozing from strangers but will allow petting. I have a basic course here at home (window, beam, 3' wall, and 6' wall/A-frame) need to get a barrel stack and tunnel.

Here is a great question I love to ask people.
If you are the Bad guy (a real one), who do you shoot first, handler or the dog?
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#10 HungrySeaGull

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 06:22 PM

I would shoot the handler 100% of the time.

 

A dog cannot shoot you, where the handler should if their dog is taken out.



#11 Coydog1254

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 07:07 PM

Yes but if the handler dies who will call the dog off if you loose your gun?
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#12 HungrySeaGull

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:43 PM

That is why you always carry a knife.

 

When a dog is running you down, offer it your non-dominate arm and try not to go to your back.



#13 Coydog1254

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:51 PM

That is a good theory but I have taken a bite from a dog on bare arm. ( he just got the inside go my right forearm and a damn spook pet dog at that) The bite hits bone right now. My bite was from a pet imagine my half gator Mal latching on to your arm pit. I definitely get what you are saying though. It's basically a Chicken or the Egg question. Either way you are most likely getting ghost checked! Lol
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#14 Silver Bullet

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Posted 08 November 2014 - 09:03 PM

Well, I am a retired guard and attack dog trainer.  I can honestly say that:  (1) I have been severely bitten on my right arm, and experienced hairline fractures, through-and-through puncture wounds, and incapacitation of my hand for, as I remember it, 7 1/2 months thereafter.  (I still consider myself to be very lucky that the nerve damage wasn't permanent; and, yes, I've got to believe that there's power in prayer.)  

 

I am the only person I know who's had his life saved by - not one, but - two well-trained Pit Bulldogs.  Back in 1990, bright and early on an otherwise quiet Sunday morning, our home was invaded by an armed street vagrant.  He caught me on crutches; and, I was so certain that it was all about to end that I completely forgot my avocation with dog training, and was actually saying a final prayer when we, both,  heard that first deep-throated growl come down from the top of the stairs!  (I never saw anybody lose a stupid self-satisfied grin faster than that guy did!)   :P

 

Tell ya what is every bit as useful as a large (bite and hold) attack dog, ....... an alert and noisy little, 'signal dog'.  I never appreciated this more than during the years when I did an acquaintance a favor, and took an unwanted miniature Dachshund off his hands.  That little guy turned out to be one of the very best dogs we've ever owned!  He was very alert, and absolutely nothing inside, about, 40 yards of the  house escaped his attention.  Since he passed last year we've really come to miss him.  Why?  Because big powerful biters don't appreciate what a firearm can do, or how effective it can be at distance.  A big dog will wait for the threat to close; but a small, 'alarm dog' will instantly signal the moment he realizes something isn't right.  

 

How fast can I get to a gun in order to stop someone from kicking in the door and come crashing into the house?  Well, I'd say that about 75 or 80 percent of the time it'll be, at least, a tie score.  The other 20 to 25 percent of the time, well, ....... that's in The Hands Of God.  There's a preordained end to everything, and to each and everyone of us, too.  Personally, I don't worry about such things.  Me?  I'd be grateful for the privilege of being allowed to pass with a weapon in my hands; but, quite honestly, I've always been this way; and I've been told that this attitude (as ostensibly hopeless as it might, at first, appear to be) is, quite possibly, one of the principal reasons, 'Why' I've lasted as long as I have.  

 

'It is not given to, even, a man that is walking to direct his own steps.'  (So, there you go!)   ;)



#15 Coydog1254

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 07:10 AM

Thanks for the reply. I would agree on the 75% - 80% draw due do the fact that kicking a door down isn't what it is made out to be on TV. However I would tend to disagree on the comment, "A big dog will wait for the threat to close; but a small, 'alarm dog' will instantly signal the moment he realizes something isn't right." As you know the training has more to do with the dogs tolerance to the approach of a perspective threat. Teaching the dog to bark the threat in is a solution to that very issue. I am also against my dogs barking to bark. I know that's not what you meant I just threw it out there. How long did you train? Would you mind going into the bite you took and mind frame you were in during the bite? Thanks again.
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#16 Silver Bullet

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 01:04 PM

I bred and trained American Pitbull Terriers for more than 35 years.  I had a hard fast rule about taking a dog back once it had been sold and spent time in the new owner's home:  If I even suspected that a dog had been abused, then, I would not accept the animal back, nor refund any monies that had been paid.  (It was a part of the contract that went along with every dog.)  I only broke this rule exactly once.  It  happened with a truly magnificent large black-brindled male.  I had sold him to a very enthusiastic college-educated professional who was, at the time, enamored with the breed.  I gave him a four or five page document on how to acclimate himself to, and raise a Bulldog.  

 

Well, wouldn't you know!  That college-educated jerk didn't do a single thing he had been told to do.  He fed the wrong food.  He didn't crate the animal at night, or as a regular part of its training regimen; and, worst of all, I had warned him to never, never, never use corporal punishment against the Bulldog.  A month, or so, later he phoned me and wanted to return the animal.  He was candid, didn't lie, and told me that - yes - he had done everything wrong.  (Why doesn't matter.)  I was very fond of that  particular dog; and, in an effort to save him, I foolishly agreed to take him back.  

 

Make no mistake, though!  From the moment I picked him up I realized that the animal was, 'damaged goods'; and I knew that I was going to have to be extra careful with him.  Several months passed; and, for the most part, I thought things were going pretty well.  Then, one night, the animal got into a kennel fight with another large male.  Without thinking I quickly stepped in between them; and the next thing I knew that big black male took an unexpected bite on my arm!  He must have thought that I was attacking him too; and, in what was probably a form of canine terror, he clamped down on me just behind my right wrist.  

 

Suffice it to say that it was a very powerful bite; and, although it didn't happen, I could have very easily lost my entire hand that night.  When he had me I instinctively knew two things:  (1) I had to, 'keep my head'; and (2) I needed to remain very calm.  Things got kind 'a, 'sticky' for a moment when a large bitch, who was my, 'shadow' for almost fourteen years, came rushing in to save me by going for my captor's neck. Then, an amazing thing happened:  I looked down at my bitch; and, in as calm a voice as I could muster, I said to her, 'Stop!'  'Stand!'; and, finally, I told her to go into her crate.  To my great relief SHE ACTUALLY LISTENED, AND DID EXACTLY WHAT SHE'D BEEN TOLD!  (She seemed very confused; but, she was a dog who only rarely disobeyed; and on that night, of all nights, her obedience unmistakably helped save my life!)  

 

By speaking in a very calm voice and remaining as still as possible I was able to talk that big black-brindled male off my wrist.   When he let me go I started spraying arterial blood all over the room!  Blood is very slippery; and I had to rip a cord off the wall, and tie a tourniquet with my remaining hand and teeth.  Then I grabbed a (reasonably) clean towel and wrapped it tightly around my damaged forearm.  I got to a phone, tried to dial 911; but the handset kept sliding out of my very bloody hand!  So, I dropped the phone on the floor, pushed it into a corner, and press-touched the emergency code into the phone with only one finger.  

 

I told the operator to listen carefully because I had severed an artery, and might lose consciousness at any moment.  He sounded young; but he handled himself well, and did everything perfectly.  It wasn't my night to die!  At the moment I called the police station the town's emergency personnel had just opened their monthly meeting - All of the emergency staff were sitting in the firehouse waiting to hear their evening lecture!  When the call came in even two trauma nurses, who weren't usually available for routine emergency calls, were also in the building.  

 

It was only, something like, three minutes after I made the call that several of the most highly qualified emergency personnel in town came rushing through our front door.  I was leaning against the wall at the base of the stairs; and I remember thinking to myself that the first young nurse through the door was every bit as beautiful as my wife!  (Yes, I married a, 'real looker'!)  They immediately began to work on me; and I was slid onto a mobile gurney in the, literal, 'blink of an eye'.  

 

As the ambulance pulled out I noticed three local police cars fall in line in front of us.  Those police cars leapfrogged through town ahead of the ambulance, and stopped in the middle of every major intersection in order to allow the ambulance to continue moving, uninterrupted,  at a high rate of speed.  Our home was located about one and a half miles from the town hospital; and I looked at the clock as they wheeled me into the emergency room.  As I remember it:  From the time of the bite to the entrance of the emergency room covered a total time period of no more than seven and a half minutes - Seven and a half minutes!  

 

The two emergency RN's remained on-site; and the younger, very pretty one, accompanied my gurney to the hospital room where I was to remain for the rest of the night.  Before she left I said to her, 'Thank you for saving my life!'  She looked at me, thought for a moment and replied, 'Mr. Stinger' you saved your own life.'  'Everything that needed to be done to staunch your blood loss was already finished before we arrived!'  Then she smiled and said, 'Nice going!' as she walked out of the room.  

 

I stayed in the hospital for the next three days; and, as I've already mentioned, I wasn't able to regain the use of my right-hand for the next seven or eight months.  I worked with a pretty tough crew at the time; I needed money, badly; and I couldn't afford to take too much time off from the job.  Another thing I will never forget about this event is, for reasons I still consider to be inexplicable, several of the men I worked with (and with whom I wasn't particularly friendly) voluntarily did my work for me, and completely hid the true extent of my injury from management!  

 

As for the Bulldog that bit me?  He was a safety risk, and had to be put down - Which happened before I came home from the hospital.  As for the extraordinarily obedient bitch who broke off her attack at my command?  She lived with us for another eleven years; and I'm not ashamed to admit that I cried like I'd lost a sister or, maybe, my best friend on the day that she passed.  Her name was, 'Sadie-Jane'.  (Same given name as my maternal grandmother; and, no, I don't know, 'Why'?)  



#17 PSDRyan

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 01:11 PM

I have a blue lacy.  He's 40lbs.  I doubt he'd ever be an effective attack dog, but he doesn't bark unless he senses something wrong.  I've done on the leash house clearing with him in practice.  It's to the point that when he wakes me up in the night because he heard or smelled something off, we clear the house together and he knows exactly where to go and what to do.

 

As for an actual door kick in while I'm home, he's going to bark before the guy gets to the door.  I carry 24/7...have a 1911 on my hip right now at the computer.  I don't draw immediately when he barks, but most likely if the door gets kicked, he's not going to get it on the first try.  I've got a steel core door and reinforced the frame for security.  If he kicks it in the first try, I'll have my gun out pretty quick, my dog is going to be in his face, and I think I'd come out on top.  If he takes more than one try, my gun is already going to be pointed at the door by the second, and as soon as it moves, I'm firing.



#18 Coydog1254

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 02:45 PM

Kinda off topic a bit and might sound like an "ITS commercial" but have you guys watched the Door Devil video? If I actually was worried about stopping someone from coming in I would have one of those. Also not a bad idea for a poor mans panic room. If you were into that sort of need.

It's a shame what can happen to some dogs. So did the guy get his money back?
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#19 Ryl4nd99

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 06:02 AM

Okay, maybe a bit off topic or something, but I'm looking for a dog to train. I'm not really sure of a few things:

1. What breed should I get?

2. How old should the dog be when I get it?

3. What should I teach it?

4. How should I teach it?

 

Thanks. :)



#20 mangeface

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 09:02 AM

Okay, maybe a bit off topic or something, but I'm looking for a dog to train. I'm not really sure of a few things:
1. What breed should I get?
2. How old should the dog be when I get it?
3. What should I teach it?
4. How should I teach it?

Thanks. :)

Start a new topic about the subject and you'll get more interest in it. Some members may not even read the thread,just see the title and skip it.

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