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Rifle caliber standardization

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#1 Fivesenenguy

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 08:31 AM

OK, so I have herd the old arguments on caliber effectiveness as many of you have. The truth of the matter from my perspective for any type of "unit" or "squad" is that a caliber should be manageable, available and not to terribly weak. In these old arguments people talk about stopping power vs weight vs amount carried. This would seem to be very important but I believe there is some missing componants to this scheme. The componants im talking about is availibility, compatability, and cost. For an example, I will use a friend of mine whos is trying to start his own little "unit" for.... well lets just say he may be a little paranoid. Now he has about five guys with roughly the same weapons but he is trying to get them to go to a 5.7 mm round as a standard. That being said, I pointed out his folly early in this ordeal as the 5.7 is a very good round it lacks alot of the key qualities that are needed for a standerdized round. Availibility can be bad in some areas, The round from my knowledge only works in a select few weapons, and the cost can be astronomical. Not to mention that the rounds stopping power can be argued. The weight and amount carried are exelent though. So what make's a good standardized round? some might say 7.62x54r. the round is cheap as is the weapon needed to shoot it and its readily available. The weight and amout being carried may be an issue but the stopping power is awesome. But there is something that the round is horrible at, compatibility. As with the 5.7 it only works within a niche of weapons some that are really hard to get ahold of such as the RPD. So what canidates at the present would make up a good round. Well there is the 5.56 Vs 7.62x39 but what other canidates would be worthy of standardization? So I ask you good people what do you think     


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#2 spenceman

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 08:56 AM

I would go with 5.56x45 (.223 Rem) and 9mm for handguns.

 

Reason being availability, and compatibility across multiple weapon systems. Personally I feel .308 is a better performer and a bit more versatile, but it's also heavy to carry, heavy on recoil, and heavy on price. 5.56 can certainly have it's drawbacks, but I think the reduction in ammo weight, rifle weight, cost, and felt recoil more than make up for its inadequacies at range. Also close encounters with a 5.56 can be enhanced with quality defensive ammunition. This all applies to 9mm as well. I really love .45 ACP for a variety of reasons but 9mm gets the job done with less weight, less recoil, less cost, and more magazine capacity. Again, terminal ballistics are greatly improved with quality defensive ammunition. For all my love and nostalgia of the heavy hitters, I just can't argue rationally that they are better for general use. When we get into specific applications, they may win at certain things, but for all around use the pros are outweighed by the cons.


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#3 B3dlam

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 09:04 AM

OK, so I have herd the old arguments on caliber effectiveness as many of you have. The truth of the matter from my perspective for any type of "unit" or "squad" is that a caliber should be manageable, available and not to terribly weak. In these old arguments people talk about stopping power vs weight vs amount carried. This would seem to be very important but I believe there is some missing componants to this scheme. The componants im talking about is availibility, compatability, and cost. For an example, I will use a friend of mine whos is trying to start his own little "unit" for.... well lets just say he may be a little paranoid. Now he has about five guys with roughly the same weapons but he is trying to get them to go to a 5.7 mm round as a standard. That being said, I pointed out his folly early in this ordeal as the 5.7 is a very good round it lacks alot of the key qualities that are needed for a standerdized round. Availibility can be bad in some areas, The round from my knowledge only works in a select few weapons, and the cost can be astronomical. Not to mention that the rounds stopping power can be argued. The weight and amount carried are exelent though. So what make's a good standardized round? some might say 7.62x54r. the round is cheap as is the weapon needed to shoot it and its readily available. The weight and amout being carried may be an issue but the stopping power is awesome. But there is something that the round is horrible at, compatibility. As with the 5.7 it only works within a niche of weapons some that are really hard to get ahold of such as the RPD. So what canidates at the present would make up a good round. Well there is the 5.56 Vs 7.62x39 but what other canidates would be worthy of standardization? So I ask you good people what do you think     

 

You could make the argument for .308 but I would say 5.56 is really the way to go.  Its widely availble with a plethora of loads on the market.  It can be had in everything from bolt action rifles, AR, AK, and many other platforms.  It is not a bad caliber ballistically.  If you wanted a slightly longer range capability you could easily have a DMR style rifle as a supplement. 

 

5.7 is a pistol caliber not a rifle caliber.  The SS197SR pushes a 40gr V-Max at 2034fps that round will drop through the speed of sound likely loosing all effective accuracy at around 250~ yards. At 500 yards its 'hitting' with 61.6 ft-lbs of energy a 5.56 at 500 yards hits with 218.3 which is close to the muzzle energy of a 5.7 at the muzzle.


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#4 Jersey0311

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 09:36 AM

These guys pretty much nailed it. 5.56 and 9mm all day everyday.

 

I'm forced to carry a .45 at work but I'd carry 9mm if I could.


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#5 Fivesenenguy

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 01:06 PM

[quote name="B3dlam" post="41358" timestamp="1435849495"]You could make the argument for 308 but I would say 5.56 is really the way to go.  Its widely availble with probably hora of loads on the market.  It can be had in everything from bolt action rifles, AR, AK, and many other platforms.  Its not a bad caliber ballistically.  If you wanted a slightly longer range capability you could easily have a DMR style rifle as a supplement. 
 
5.7 is a pistol caliber not a rifle caliber. 

True but like many pistol calibers it has been adopted by some "carbine" platforms. Some people like this as a "primary" weapon far be it from me to tell them thats probably not the best idea but hey if they dont like the results as the math suggests they cant complain.

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#6 B3dlam

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 08:50 PM

[quote name="B3dlam" post="41358" timestamp="1435849495"]You could make the argument for 308 but I would say 5.56 is really the way to go.  Its widely availble with probably hora of loads on the market.  It can be had in everything from bolt action rifles, AR, AK, and many other platforms.  Its not a bad caliber ballistically.  If you wanted a slightly longer range capability you could easily have a DMR style rifle as a supplement. 
 
5.7 is a pistol caliber not a rifle caliber. 

True but like many pistol calibers it has been adopted by some "carbine" platforms. Some people like this as a "primary" weapon far be it from me to tell them thats probably not the best idea but hey if they dont like the results as the math suggests they cant complain.

 

A pistol caliber carbine definitely isn't ever going to beat an actual rifle.  I have considered running one that shares mags with my EDC pistol as a truck gun but thats about the extent of my interest in them.


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#7 pira114

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Posted 03 July 2015 - 01:20 AM

556. Nuff said.

But to address the 7.62 54R. It's a cool cartridge. Especially at night. Cheap. The rifles that shoot them are cheap.

But I think they're a horrible idea for the stated use. I have three Mosins. Fun to shoot, and you can turn one into a decent hunting rifle cheap and easy. But they just aren't anywhere near the realm of fighting rifle anymore. Heavy, ammo is heavy, loud, bright flash at night (blindingly bright), and you just aren't going to find parts you may need "in the wild." Accuracy is so so as well. That kinda depends on the particular surplus rifle you pick up. I see so many "survivalist" types touting their viability it just makes me cringe.

There is no end all be all rifle. But an AR platform 5.56 is the absolute best compromise you'll find.

Edited by pira114, 03 July 2015 - 01:21 AM.


#8 Sourdough

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 06:04 AM

I very respectfully state that the AR-platform in 6.8 SPC-II is "BEST" and NOT a compromise. When one's ass is on the line........fuck compromise. Having 5.56X45 uppers for practice running drills, and switching to 6.8 SPC-II when it is sporting meets my needs.

There is no end all be all rifle. But an AR platform 5.56 is the absolute best compromise you'll find.



#9 pira114

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 06:50 AM

I very respectfully state that the AR-platform in 6.8 SPC-II is "BEST" and NOT a compromise. When one's ass is on the line........fuck compromise. Having 5.56X45 uppers for practice running drills, and switching to 6.8 SPC-II when it is sporting meets my needs.
There is no end all be all rifle. But an AR platform 5.56 is the absolute best compromise you'll find.


Except when you're unable to find that ammo in sufficient quantities. I'm assuming the OP is talking about SHTF scenarios.

#10 Sourdough

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 02:13 PM

Anyone who does NOT have "Sufficient" Quantities of ammo for their primary firearms......BEFORE......the shtf, is big'time SOL

 

 

 

Except when you're unable to find that ammo in sufficient quantities. I'm assuming the OP is talking about SHTF scenarios.



#11 pira114

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Posted 04 July 2015 - 03:13 PM

Anyone who does NOT have "Sufficient" Quantities of ammo for their primary firearms......BEFORE......the shtf, is big'time SOL


Agreed. And I'm not hating on the 6.8. I happen to really like it. Just thinking when it comes time to scavenging or bartering, 5.56 will be more plentiful.
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#12 CalicoJack

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Posted 05 July 2015 - 02:26 PM

45-70. Because 405 grains of hardcast hate and discontent and when I run out of smokeless powder to reload with, I'll just mix together my own gunpowder. Plus it'll go great with my mountain man beard I plan on growing.
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#13 ArkansasFan

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 07:33 AM

I've been thinking about something similar to this for a few years now.  I really enjoy my .45ACP, and I've got a lot of ammo for it.  However, I also have a .40S&W and a 9x19mm (and a 9 Makarov and a .380) with a lot of ammo for the last three as well.  At one time, I even had .357 Sig.  I don't want to get rid of any of my handguns.  In fact, I want more, but I'm so sick of ammunition.  I hate buying it.  I hate storing it.  I hate moving one can to get to the can that's under it - you follow me.  Don't even get me started on long arms as I've got 20 of those and variable ammunition.  Again, a lot of them are sentimental so I do plan on keeping them.  Many are legacy firearms and mint.  I need to standardize, and I'm coming around to the 9mm argument.  I've never had a .22LR handgun and want one for the simple fun of it so that's on my list, but beyond that I think I want choose 9mm as my only future pistols.  I think I'll keep storing .308 for my preferred long rifle, bring in more 9mm ammo, .22LR and 12 ga. of course, and continue storing 5.56 which I need more of now.  I also want another rifle that will shoot it. 


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#14 Fivesenenguy

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 11:08 AM

ok, just for clarification I was refering to any small or large group of people I.E. family small malitia ect, or just personal "ammo" managment lol. Also for any situation. I know thats kind of broad but its defenitly somthing to think about. Me personally if in a SHTF type senario, I have 5.56/.223 And 9mm. If I where to through in a long gun it would be .30-06. all these rounds are common in most areas and as far as the 5.56/.223 and 9mm are concerned easy to carry and well suited for my needs.


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#15 DustOffMedic92

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 01:47 PM

As many types of rounds I have in the house, I still like to have my Wife and I on a standardized setup. For now our actual, No Shit there I was Setups are 9x19 for the pistols, and 5.56 for the carbines, but with my SBR in the works, .300 BLK may well just become the standardized round for house seeing as its a multi purpose round. 

 

 

 

Or I'll just throw caution to the wind and buy my Wife a Garand too and run -06 as the bulk round...


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