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#1 BTSmith10

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 07:49 PM

My wife and I witnessed a three vehicle accident with one of the vehicles rolling over this afternoon. Fortunately, it looked worse than it actually was and there weren't any major or life threatening injuries. I responded by doing my best to assess and calm down one of the drivers until law enforcement showed up a couple of minutes later. It got me thinking about my lack of medical training (a wilderness first aid class in college about four years ago is the extent of it) and what I would have done if the accident was worse. I think I'm a little more prepared than the average person (thanks to this forum); but I want to start taking steps to remedy this weakness in my skills. Where/how should I start?
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#2 EMSWxSAR

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 08:27 PM

A good CPR/AED/First Aid class for starters. You'll probably remember most of it from your Wilderness First Aid class, but it reinforces the basics. From there the world is your oyster. There are some neat NAEMT classes out there like PHTLS, LEFR-TCC, AMLS, etc. You can also go the EMT route, which is what I'm doing (my classes start on the 24th!).
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#3 pira114

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 03:38 AM

Not sure who hosts the FEMA classes in your area, but someone does. Google Trauma Care Management FEMA, and see if that works.

It should be free, or less than $100 (depends a lot on type, location, and equipment needed for a particular agency to host a class), and likely hosted by a local LE or FD agency. The one I use is usually restricted to LE just because of space, but not always. It's an 8 hour class and you should receive an IFAK at the end.

#4 BTSmith10

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 08:04 AM

Great! Thanks for the info. Definitely some good starting points.

#5 bigpac931

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 08:23 AM

I dont know off hand how teach's in the north west but for changes i have seen come out of AHA for first aid skills i would not tell someone to waste there time or money . I know caleb from Lonestar Medics covers texas area conference is not a bad start he is slowly dialing in what people want to get it to them. Kerry davis with dark angel bounces all over the country you could try and catch him. My self and Doc work in the florida area . but just look some Instructors up toss there name up in some forums and see if the come back with good reviews . The basic information i think you are looking for can be given in a good 2 day course if you want more details after that then i would like into maybe an EMT but beware that is going to be a lot of info that does not apply to PT care.          I started a new thread  Software over Hardware if you have any direct questions drop it there i am going to try and make it  a online reference  of sorts . 


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#6 ArkansasFan

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 09:15 AM

Look, I'll be honest.  I laud your desire to help.  Too many people lack the desire so no amount of skills will help them to aid a victim.  That being said, I've done a lot of first responder work.  Name it.  I was a volunteer fireman for six years, was a police officer for nearly a decade, and I used to moonlight as a paramedic. 

 

When I started out, I simply got excited going to "emergencies" and "doing cool stuff."  I was young and moronic.  I don't even know who that kid was anymore.  However, I recall being witness to countless "trained" people raning from nurses to people who had taken first responder or EMT classes to a dermatologist trying to help.  The fact is, because they'd taken the class, they were still near useless because medical/trauma skills and scene management weren't things they practiced on a routine basis.  Believe it or not, those are perishable skills. 

 

I believe you should have a baseline of skills to help yourself and family.  If you can help someone else then great.  I'm going to portray a fictitious scenario.  You choose to take an actual EMT course for a semester.  Bam.  You're an EMT.  Three years later you're cruising to the Smokies and you see an accident.  You pullover and go running up thinking "I'm an EMT.  I'm an EMT."  You stand at the door of a rollover, and.....(blank)....  "Yep, I'm an EMT, but I can't think of what I should do.  I know I know what to do, but  I can't remember."  That was classic for all of the scores of people that have snuck up behind me, while rendering aid, many wearing their own latex (or later nitrile) gloves they kept stashed in their vehicles. 

 

Again, I applaud your efforts.  But just because you're trained doesn't mean you can really help. 

 

(this is not meant to be a condescending reply)


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#7 MightyP

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Posted 20 August 2015 - 01:23 PM

Again, I applaud your efforts.  But just because you're trained doesn't mean you can really help. 

 

(this is not meant to be a condescending reply)

 

 

Trained doesn't mean qualified, right? If nothing else, you need refreshers just to stay current. I hadn't been CPR trained for 4 years when I went through it again last year. Imagine my surprise when I found out breaths aren't even a part of it anymore! Wouldn't I have felt awkward giving mouth-to-mouth to one of my overweight coworkers after he had a heart attack!  :embarassed:


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#8 bigpac931

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 02:33 PM

Medical studies change the way we treat People and what is taught in basic certification classes like CPR . CPR is also taught at different levels like Bystander  , first responder, and  health care provider . Not all the changes done in my opinion are good . I believe some one should know how to find a pulse and if it is or is not present before separating there ribs from there sternum pressing on someones chest who is just passed out .


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#9 MightyP

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 05:57 PM

Medical studies change the way we treat People and what is taught in basic certification classes like CPR . CPR is also taught at different levels like Bystander  , first responder, and  health care provider . Not all the changes done in my opinion are good . I believe some one should know how to find a pulse and if it is or is not present before separating there ribs from there sternum pressing on someones chest who is just passed out .

 

My last training was with the Sheriff's Dept I was volunteering with, but it wasn't First Responder. I remember we were definitely taught to check for a pulse and breathing before giving compressions.


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#10 bigpac931

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 09:21 AM

Just rechecked the guidlines from AHA No pulse check is shown in bystander CPR training . It is the down fall of the new way of doing business it is not hard to teach some a basic assessment i personally dont think any person should deliver care for someone with out knowing how to check if they are breathing or have a pulse .


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#11 ducttapedave

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 10:25 AM

I find volunteer work is a great way to keep your skills up. I volunteer with Saint John and  Search  and  Rescue to make sure that I get regular training in addition to recerts and continuing medical education credits. We regularly run scenarios and work with the health regions Paramedics on a regular basis. 

 

Above is raised a very valuable point, scene management and even your first aid skills are perishable. You need to keep practising.

 

To interject another point, you also need to understand where you are practising, what you should be expected to face and what response times are. In my area unless you're an advanced care paramedic you're basically monitoring vitals and supporting those until you hand it off to further advanced care. A lot of people I volunteer with get to into the diagnosis of what is wrong and forget to  do what they need to do -> ABC'S.


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#12 Virius

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 12:12 AM

Just rechecked the guidlines from AHA No pulse check is shown in bystander CPR training . It is the down fall of the new way of doing business it is not hard to teach some a basic assessment i personally dont think any person should deliver care for someone with out knowing how to check if they are breathing or have a pulse .

I teach AHA CPR and the idea, at least what the AHA tells their instuctors, is that no assessment is needed by HeartSaver(bystander) CPR because studies showed that lay people would mistaken agonal (dying breath) breathing as actual breathing and think they found a pulse when they actually didn't, because finding a carotid pulse can take some skill on some people. So agonal breathing and lack of skill in taking a pulse adds up to the bystander not doing CPR because they think the person is fine.

In reality if someone is unconscious and a layperson does CPR and the patient doesn't need it the CPR isn't going to do any major damage (even if the patient is injured by a bystander doing CPR the bystander, in Wisconsin anyway, they are covered by the Good Samaritan Law). If the patient is fine they either wake up, moan or make some sign of life and if so the bystander is taught to stop. If the patient needs it then checking for a pulse and breath will be done by EMS when they arrive.

The goal is to have early CPR and AED use with early EMS activation in all unconscious patients.

Trust me, it sucks teaching HeartSaver CPR when I think of how easy it is to check to see if they have a pulse or breathing and I'm not supposed to teach a lay person how to do a simple assessment.

Like someone mentioned before being a healthcare provider is a perishable skill and not needed CPR is better than no CPR when it's needed.

Edited by Virius, 24 August 2015 - 12:16 AM.

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#13 bigpac931

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 07:11 AM

I dont like what the AHA is doing with bystander CPR  you  don't dumb down care because you think it may help .If Medicine is going to be taught they should follow the Main Principles of First Do No Harm .   Older people with any respiratory illness breaking the ribs free of the sternum does them harm cause any increase in the work effort to breath and the start shutting down . I have personally ran this call on a person with CHF so no i don't believe in the AHA saying something is better than nothing when the person doing bodily harm to some one has no idea what they are doing it for because they have not checked to see what is wrong with the person before treating them.  I wish the AHA could be sued for Malpractice for teaching this because it gives people a Certification to be stupid and if it hurts someone you get to duck under a Good Samaritan  Law which was not designed to cover people doing bad treatment only to cover what the average person would do in the same scenario.     It is what it is but if any one asks me about getting training or knowledge i tell them to steer clear of it because it does not give them in tools to truly help people.


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#14 pira114

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 07:36 AM

Well, technically, you do CPR on dead people. As in, no pulse. So you can't really do them more harm that way. If it works, you have a live person with broken ribs, vs a dead person. So in that regard, something is better than nothing.

But yeah, I agree that you should know that they actually need it.

#15 Koopa

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 03:17 PM

I've been an EMT for 6 years. As lots of folks have already chimed in, scene management is probably the most important skill.  I can teach a monkey to perform CPR or splint a broken bone. Scene management is very perishable. I know because when I take time off, I have to re-adjust when I come back.  

 

That being said, definitely get some medical training! Going to a local fire/rescue station is a good place to get info about training in your area. Most community colleges have EMT classes. If you join your local department they might even pay for it, and you'll get to practice your skills. 


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#16 Refleks

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Posted 31 August 2015 - 07:44 PM

Agonal breathing can be pretty disturbing.  That and writhing is not something a lot of people teach you to expect when you take a BLS class, and that's not what the layman has come to expect when they see a dead person from movies, funerals, etc.

Here are a couple of videos of successful CPR/AED use

 

https://youtu.be/88uCTEmuuGI?t=45s
 

https://youtu.be/_8tZT2Jx8H0


Edited by Refleks, 31 August 2015 - 07:45 PM.





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