Jump to content


Photo

CCW newbie with a dumb question


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 jopasmith

jopasmith

    Mate

  • Crew Member
  • 84 posts
  • LocationNorthern Utah

Posted 14 August 2015 - 06:52 AM

Quick question that's probably going to make me sound dumb, but I've done a lot of searching and can't get a satisfactory answer. I remember in my ccw class that the instructor told me we could carry anywhere except in places where it's posted, however as I've been walking around and paying attention a lot of the places he gave as examples of places we can't carry don't have it clearly posted. How am I expected to know where I can't carry if there is no posting stating that there are no weapons allowed?

#2 DStevenson

DStevenson

    Salty Dog

  • Moderator
  • 1,869 posts
  • LocationMichigan

Posted 14 August 2015 - 07:48 AM

A good question.  Target (ironically) is one of those companies I believe that recently stated they do not want firearms carried into their facilities.

The part I found important when concerning whether you can carry someplace or not (aside from the usual schools, colleges, churches, hosp. arenas and stadiums, etc.) is if it is the plainly posted.

This to me means it better be on every door coming into and exiting the building with a big picture of a pistol and a big red line through it.

 

If there is any chance I can enter the building without seeing that sign, I consider myself good to go.

 

If a company (Target for example) says publicly in advertisements, announces it in newspapers and posts it on their website, heck even has a town crier outside of the building yelling it.. if I can enter the building without seeing a giant sign with a pistol and big red line then it's not enough for me.

 

I follow the rules.. I don't carry in the primary locations, heck I never even have a sip of alcohol when I carry but I consider stores, restaurants and venues under a certain capacity (based on your state restrictions) a safe place to carry without that big sign that I cannot miss.


  • z0phi3l, DieselD and EMSWxSAR like this

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin

5399202523_bd1cb04e2e_o.png


#3 Feeny

Feeny

    Landlubber

  • Crew Leader
  • 18 posts
  • LocationColorado

Posted 14 August 2015 - 08:40 AM

Basically as far as private business goes it depends on state law, they are all a little different. But it usually boils down to two things. First the difference between "rules" and "laws". Businesses have rules that if you don't follow they can ask you to leave which can turn into a legal problem quick and esclate. Then there are laws which the police come and take you away for for breaking. Carry in private business is a rule. Second is if the state has what is called force of law with signs. Colorado does not. This means that in Colorado going into a place that has well posted "No Gun" signs is breaking rules but not laws.

 

Now this will change from state. I would suggest looking it up for your state. Also reading over the actual wording of the law that gives power to your CCW in that state. They are usually a little confusing but there are actually a handful of good lawyers (don't hear that often) that are out there that help in translating.

 

Hopefully that helps some.



#4 SteveSOS

SteveSOS

    Salty Dog

  • Crew Member
  • 342 posts
  • LocationAnchorage Alaska

Posted 14 August 2015 - 11:30 AM

actually it really does depend on where you are and what happens. 

 

For example if you are carrying a gun in a store it become unconcealed for even a moment the store owner sees it and asks you to leave... you have to leave. 

 

Schools and whatnot are public places, and allowed to be carried at in most place. Some however you cannot. Here in Oregon that was completely struck down. You can carry at schools, colleges, stadiums etc and they CANT tell you no because they are publicly funded. Now privately funded is a whole other story. 

 

But general rule of thumb if you are properly concealing how would anyone know. And follow posted signs in obvious places. 


Posted Image

#5 rottenit

rottenit

    Salty Dog

  • Life Member
  • 105 posts
  • LocationSomewhere in MN thats not cool

Posted 14 August 2015 - 12:39 PM

I would take a look at this cheat sheet (always verify 3rd party sources with state statues & case law):

 

http://handgunlaw.us/states/utah.pdf


  • davebass and jopasmith like this

#6 jopasmith

jopasmith

    Mate

  • Crew Member
  • 84 posts
  • LocationNorthern Utah

Posted 14 August 2015 - 01:45 PM

I would take a look at this cheat sheet (always verify 3rd party sources with state statues & case law):
 
http://handgunlaw.us/states/utah.pdf

Thanks for website link. This is actually really helpful.

actually it really does depend on where you are and what happens. 
 
For example if you are carrying a gun in a store it become unconcealed for even a moment the store owner sees it and asks you to leave... you have to leave. 
 
Schools and whatnot are public places, and allowed to be carried at in most place. Some however you cannot. Here in Oregon that was completely struck down. You can carry at schools, colleges, stadiums etc and they CANT tell you no because they are publicly funded. Now privately funded is a whole other story. 
 
But general rule of thumb if you are properly concealing how would anyone know. And follow posted signs in obvious places.

This seems to be the case in Utah. The law states that a private business can request that you not carry and that you leave if they see you, but there are no real legal ramifications unless one party gets too disorderly about it.

#7 HTEngineer

HTEngineer

    Mate

  • Crew Leader
  • 69 posts

Posted 14 August 2015 - 02:04 PM

Schools and whatnot are public places, and allowed to be carried at in most place. Some however you cannot. Here in Oregon that was completely struck down. You can carry at schools, colleges, stadiums etc and they CANT tell you no because they are publicly funded. Now privately funded is a whole other story. 

Wow did they change that? I thought that the public universities still banned everything in OR?

 

OP, it depends on what state you live in. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm going to plow forward anyway. You have to follow what the state law says. Here in KS they simplified it to say everything has to be posted for CCH where you can't carry. You also have to find out what determines if it is actually posted. For example, if you can enter by a door that isn't posted in accordance, here there is a specific sign shape and size that is legal, it isn't potentially illegal if the sign isn't. They have since changed the posting (except in federally governed buildings, that's fed law) to mean that they don't wish you to come in, and if they find out you're carrying they can ask you to leave, if you refuse it's trespassing. Fed will still prosecute you for walking through the door. Schools depend on your state law how and where you can carry. Here universities are public property, but you can't carry in the buildings (they got a 4 year exemption to have a CJ, until they can "come up with security policies") nor can many people carry on campus if you're affiliated with the university, who will expel, fire, etc. you.

So check the federal stuff first, easy to avoid, but you NEED to know those. Next read the state stuff, most of the time it is like what everyone has said, but it depends on the state. So double check and make sure! The Target, Chipolte, etc. thing is them just trying to shut up MDA with a statement. They don't wan't people open carrying, and I don't blame them, so stay concealed and you're fine. Remember, they want as much business as they possibly can get and if you're not causing a scene and making other customers uncomfortable (and OC can do this) they won't care.

 

They used to have a list of places you can't carry like churches, schools, events with 1000+ people, restaurants (bars) that do more than 50% of business in alcohol. Are you referring to those? They can be a PITA. Looks like there are weird church laws in Utah. You need to read a bunch, hopefully your CCH instructor was good and will answer your questions.



#8 Sourdough

Sourdough

    Salty Dog

  • Crew Member
  • 337 posts
  • LocationOn a Mountain, at the end of a logging trail, next too the creek, in a shack, on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska

Posted 15 August 2015 - 08:39 AM

I avoid this problem by only going to town every three or four months. And when I do go, I only stay for six hours.


  • rottenit likes this

#9 DeathwatchDoc

DeathwatchDoc

    Salty Dog

  • Moderator
  • 1,936 posts
  • LocationAlabama

Posted 15 August 2015 - 08:44 AM

The my state made it easy... You have to CLEARLY post a sign to ban them. Just having it on your website or some rules list at a mall is NOT enough in my state. It has to be clearly stated on all entrances.

89BccLb.png


#10 SteveSOS

SteveSOS

    Salty Dog

  • Crew Member
  • 342 posts
  • LocationAnchorage Alaska

Posted 16 August 2015 - 10:45 PM

yup they did in fact change it after the guy from UofO fought it in court and wont. Basically if it is a publicly funded area they cant do anything to trump your state permit... however courthouses (well to the court rooms anyway) and civil buildings are still a no no. 

 

I carry to pick up my kids at school all the time... carry to school events never really get bothered. BUT its always concealed properly... remember concealed handguns people shouldnt know you have one


  • HTEngineer likes this
Posted Image

#11 mackguy

mackguy

    Salty Dog

  • Crew Member
  • 460 posts
  • LocationLexington, NC

Posted 17 August 2015 - 02:20 PM

It's remarkable how fragmented the laws are, and particularly confusing if you frequently travel.  Thankfully NC is pretty straightforward these days, but I recall two that seemed very odd

 

1) my dad is in Florid and claims that he cannot carry and be seated in the "bar area" of a restaurant (i.e. Applebees), but it's OK to sit in the "family" section

 

2) I think Michigan, but not positive, and this was several years ago the similar rule was that you could not carry in an establishment that earned more than 51% of their income from alcohol sales... So I guess you're supposed to walk in unarmed, ask to see a copy of their balance sheet, and then make your decision??

 

It really is all much too complex, but you gotta do what you gotta do.. 



#12 DStevenson

DStevenson

    Salty Dog

  • Moderator
  • 1,869 posts
  • LocationMichigan

Posted 17 August 2015 - 04:06 PM

It is Michigan that has that law about the establishment.

It's not as fine as 51% as you claim, it has a lot of grey area.

 

The thinking is... if the establishment is primarily a bar then you cannot carry.  If it's primary function is as a restaurant then you can.  Since the law is somewhat loose so am I.


  • DirtyTrigger likes this

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin

5399202523_bd1cb04e2e_o.png


#13 mackguy

mackguy

    Salty Dog

  • Crew Member
  • 460 posts
  • LocationLexington, NC

Posted 17 August 2015 - 04:57 PM

Maybe I inferred that, being an engineer, it's hard to wrap my head around vague legalese.. As you say, what is "primarily a bar" mean?

NC as if 2013 is the much simpler "don't drink whilst having a concealed firearm about your person"

I also believe they recently downgraded carrying in a posted private location from a misdemeanor to an infraction.

#14 MightyP

MightyP

    Salty Dog

  • Crew Leader
  • 699 posts
  • LocationSan Antonio

Posted 17 August 2015 - 07:46 PM

I used to live in Florida and it's exactly how your dad explained it. It's kind of a weird law, but it's true.

As for the 51% rule, I don't know about Michigan specifically, but Texas has the same thing. Only, in Texas, it's on the establishment to post an official sign. No sign, no problem.

ITSSignature2.png

What I lack in knowledge & skill, I make up for with sarcasm & bad jokes.


#15 SacRyan

SacRyan

    Salty Dog

  • Crew Leader
  • 136 posts
  • LocationUT

Posted 19 August 2015 - 07:57 AM

Since the OP's location says Northern Utah (hey reach out buddy we'll go shooting if we can get together)...

 

As a permit holder, exactly, where can I carry or not carry a handgun?

The concealed firearm permit allows an individual to carry a firearm fully loaded and concealed.  The permit also allows an individual to carry a firearm into public schools. Permit holders can not carry a firearm into federal or state restricted areas i.e. any airport secured area, federal facilities, courts, correctional & mental health facilities, law enforcement secured areas, a house of worship or private residence where notice given and/or posted, any secured area in which firearms are prohibited and notice posted, or otherwise prohibited by state of federal law.

From the state's BCI website:

http://bci.utah.gov/...sked-questions/

 

And if you really want to get into it:

http://bci.utah.gov/...ule-references/


Qd3OG01.png

Do the right thing, even when no one is looking.


#16 mackguy

mackguy

    Salty Dog

  • Crew Member
  • 460 posts
  • LocationLexington, NC

Posted 19 August 2015 - 08:33 AM

Carry in public schools?  The horror!



#17 jopasmith

jopasmith

    Mate

  • Crew Member
  • 84 posts
  • LocationNorthern Utah

Posted 19 August 2015 - 06:05 PM

Thanks for all the help. I appreciate all of the resources as well. It's nice to interact with people who actually know how to cite stuff. I know too many people who believe something purely because someone on Facebook said so.

#18 jopasmith

jopasmith

    Mate

  • Crew Member
  • 84 posts
  • LocationNorthern Utah

Posted 21 August 2015 - 11:45 AM

Since the OP's location says Northern Utah (hey reach out buddy we'll go shooting if we can get together)...

 

What part of UT are you in?



#19 smokey

smokey

    Salty Dog

  • Crew Member
  • 161 posts
  • LocationNorthern Utah

Posted 21 August 2015 - 01:53 PM

As another northern UT resident (Logan). The only places that I know of are the usual federal/LE buildings. The church gets their panties in a bunch and dont like CCW but as far as I know they dont have signs up.



#20 z0phi3l

z0phi3l

    Landlubber

  • Crew Member
  • 18 posts

Posted 22 August 2015 - 10:53 AM

You'd think that after the GA incident Churches would be run by people smart enough to lift the retarded bans

 

Maybe a few more dead churchgoers will wake them up, I know morbid, but true 






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users