Are Mini Red Dot Sights a Viable Option for Pistols? Jeff Gonzales Joins us for a Q&A

by June 18, 2013 06/18/13
SHOT Show 2010 Day 1

I’m excited to announce a new partnership here on ITS Tactical, with Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts as a contributor. I consider Jeff one of the top instructors in the firearms industry today and I had the unique opportunity to train under him a few months back.

Out of that opportunity, came the discussion around getting Jeff to share his wealth of knowledge as a former Navy SEAL and respected firearms instructor, with the community here at ITS.

2013-03-17-09.06.37

Something that really stood out to me during the course I attended with Jeff, was his usage of a Mini Red Dot Sights on his Glocks. I’ve always been interested to learn more about the “why” of red dots on pistols and was intrigued when Jeff gave a brief on them during class.

I’ve honestly always had mixed feelings on them personally, but I was very impressed with Jeff’s information he presented surrounding their usage. The following Q&A was developed to allow me to share Jeff’s perspective with everyone here and make it a bit easier than transcribing the pages of notes I was furiously jotting down during class, for fear that I might miss some important details.

Mini Red Dot Sights on Pistols

Q: In attending the Trident Concepts Combative Pistol Course a few months back, I was really intrigued by the Red Dot Sights you were running on your pistols. Can you give us some background on Red Dot usage on pistols and what drew you to give them a shot?

A: Mini red dot sights have been around since the 90s, primarily in the competition arena. They’ve been used by several well-known competitive shooters and slowly started to transition into the combat arena, when we saw red dots on rifles become so successful.

Back in about 2009, our staff was reviewing next year’s involvement with manufacturers to determine who we wanted to assist and impact positive influence with. One of the topics that was brought up was mini red dots on pistols, at first I was against the idea because I didn’t feel that it had reached the level that we needed to be at in both technology, size and supporting equipment.

It didn’t take long to see all those items catch-up and I was pleasantly surprised when I had the opportunity to use the first Mini Red Dot, a Leupold Delta Point, on a Glock 17 during a class I did at an indoor range.

Within the first magazine, the concept was validated. The more I used the pistol the more enamored I became with it, I quickly saw not only the effectiveness, but its potential down the road. Shortly after that class we reached out to the industry to acquire our own and put them into service for long-term evaluation. Very quickly it became obvious that we were really going to like this new technology.

 

Q: In your experience, what are the pros and cons of Red Dots on pistols?

A: So far we’ve identified several pros, which include anytime viewability of the sight, target focus versus sight focus shooting style and binocular versus monocular vision. Some of the cons that we experienced are increased cost for a duty pistol, a commitment to that pistol to ensure functionality and an understanding of the battery life, which for all purposes is quite good. There are a few others but they are more indicative of the red dot sights themselves.

 

Q: Do you consider Red Dots to be “better” than irons in pistol shooting? How have you seen the adoption of Red Dots taking off in the industry?

A: I do see red dot sights as a huge improvement over iron sights. There are so many positive gains when you moved to a red dot on a pistol. Not to point out the obvious, but we aren’t getting any younger. As we get older and our eyes become more seasoned, positive identification on the iron sights becomes much more difficult. The red dots simply bypass that difficulty and it’s literally like flipping a switch for those who have struggled to see their front sight.

IMG_3057

I believe the industry has embraced this new technology and we certainly aren’t going to be moving away from it. It’s just a matter of time before more people recognize the value and start to travel down that path. The industry probably hasn’t responded as quickly as I might like, but as word gets out I’m sure that will spur creativity and manufacturing.

 

Q: What kind of Red Dots do you recommend for pistols and what led you to these choices?

A: I am still torn between the two big guns, which are the Leupold Delta Point and the Trijicon RMR. In my opinion they both represent the best the industry has to offer at this point. It’s hard for me to pick a clear-cut winner as each has pros the others don’t, as well as cons the others don’t.

SHOT Show 2010 Day 1 IMG_3155

For instance, I really like the larger field of view that you get with the Delta point, but I also like the ability to adjust the intensity of the dot I get with the RMR. Since I’ve been playing with both, I’ve edged slightly closer to the RMR. I just wish it had a larger field of view.

 

Q: Is MOA on a Red Dot sight an important consideration when making a purchase?

A: Because the engagement distances are so close, in my opinion MOA consideration is less of a factor. The most common sizes are 3.5 and 6.5 MOA in a dot configuration and 7.5 in the Delta configuration. The furthest distance I’ve shot red dot sights on a pistol has been 50 yards and certainly at that distance the smaller size dot is very helpful.

Since most pistol engagements will be well inside of the 25 yard line, I’ve struggled to see a clear leader in the size. My preference is more for the larger. since it is assumed most engagements would be close in nature and the larger dot would theoretically be quicker to pick up. My daily carry gun has a 6.5 MOA as the primary optic.

 

Q: Along those lines, what methods of attachment are out there and what do you prefer?

A: As I mentioned earlier, transitioning to red dot sights on pistols is a commitment. The three main mounting options are to utilize a dovetail plate, mill out the slide or mill out the slide to accommodate the Unity Tactical Atom Mount. The dovetail mount is the least advisable since it places the optic much higher making it slightly more challenging to pick up the dot. it also complicates holster selection, considering nobody is making holsters to accommodate this configuration.

The slides that are milled out are very good option, but you must choose which optic you are going to go with. It’s permanent once milled for that optic, so you have to have a good idea of which optic is best going to serve your purposes.

The Atom Mount mills out the slide to accommodate a removable mount that can be switched out for different optics. It’s probably the most advantageous option if you’re not entirely sure on which optic you’re going to go with, or you just want the flexibility to change it out down the road. I’ve been running and Atom Mount on my carry gun and absolutely love it.

 

Q: If someone is looking to get into a Red Dot sight on their pistol, but doesn’t want to commit to cutting the slide, or is looking for a lower cost options, what would you recommend?

A: The dovetail plates are a good option for those that are not sure they would like the red dot feature on a pistol. While it’s lower cost, it doesn’t fulfill all of our needs, specifically there are very very few holster options available. I’m also slightly concerned that with the larger footprint in surface area, leverage could be applied that could shift the mount in the dovetail.

 

Q: Something big you hit on with Red Dots, is ensuring that the rear iron sight is placed in front of the red dot, why is this important?

A: We ought to put the backup iron sights in front of the optic for three main reasons. The first is to provide a small degree of protection to the optic. Second is so that both sights are on the same plane in regards to the field of view.

This is More important if you are running the RMR. As I look through the optic, when both iron sights are in front, I have a higher chance of concentrating on the front sight. If the rear sights is behind the optic, I have to look through the glass, which makes distinguishing the front sight a greater challenge and somewhat slower for me.

 

Q: What kind of holsters are currently available for pistols with a Red Dot?

A: From a duty point of view, the best holster out there is the Safariland 6354DO which stands for Docter Optic, which was the first red dot to have a holster designed around it. The holster will accommodate both the Delta Point and the RMR. From a concealment point of view, several companies have started to produce holsters that will accommodate red dot sights.

SHOT Show 2010 Day 1

You have both leather and kydex choices and we continue to work with holster manufacturers to increase the options available. Right now the leather holster that has been the most accommodating comes from Five Shot Leather and the Kydex option that has been the most accommodating comes from Raven Concealment Systems.

 

Q: Where do you see Red Dot technology for pistols going in the future? Do you feel there’s any benefit to reducing the footprint?

A: We are already seeing gun manufacturers producing pistols at the factory that are milled to accommodate red dot sights. I see that option increasing as popularity increases. I’ve also encouraged both manufacturers to continue to innovate in their attempt to make the products smaller, lighter and tougher.

We can only hope that we’re not outpacing technology at this point. Many red dots are here to stay and we’ll no doubt see more and more manufacturers recognizing them and putting more effort into accommodating them in the industry.

Notes

Please join me in welcoming Jeff to ITS as a contributor, I’m really looking forward to working with him on future articles and excited to share what we’re already collaborating on.

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I’ll also mention that if you’re looking for quality instruction, Jeff comes with my highest recommendation. I’m not just saying that for the sake of extra publicity for his classes, I really feel that the course I attended with Trident Concepts was one of the best I’ve ever taken and I came away learning more about myself in regards to pistol, than I ever have in any other course I’ve attended.

Trident Concepts

US Navy SEAL and modern warfare expert, Jeff Gonzales serves as President for Trident Concepts, LLC. Jeff was a decorated and respected US Navy SEAL serving as an operator and trainer who participated in numerous combat operations throughout the world. Comprising a staff of diverse and professional Naval Special Warfare instructors, this battle proven company specializes in weapons, tactics and techniques to meet the evolving threat. Bringing the same high-intensity mindset, operational success and lessons learned from NSW to our training programs, TRICON has been recognized as an industry leader by various federal, state and local units. Organizations interested in training with TRICON can call 928-925-7038 or visit www.tridentconcepts.com for more information.

 


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COMBAT Performance Group
COMBAT Performance Group

I concur with Jeff's findings, however I would like to add another advantage to using a pistol mounted RDS. A pistol mounted RDS provides extreme advantage when conducting operations under NOD's.  Without the ability to change focus planes from threat distance to front sight distance, using a pistol under NOD's either as a primary weapon system or during a primary to secondary transition can force the operator to fire reflexively or instinctively.  Depending on the threat distance this may be a viable option, but without getting into the the "point vs. precision" shooting argument, getting hits on target first is what wins gunfights.  A pistol mounted RDS with IR capability or at a low brightness setting, allows the operator to maintain focus on the threat and acquire the sight picture necessary to end the fight.  Obviously a distinct advantage in low light conditions.  I preface all of this with "unit funding may vary" and as with everything else, mission drives the gear!

nemesis2
nemesis2

another benefit of the RDS on a pistol comes into play when working under NOD's.  Without the ability to change the focus plane of the optic from threat distance to sight distance in the midst of either a primary to secondary transition, or if running blackout with a pistol primary, an RDS with IR capability and NOD's provide the operator a tremendous advantage in low light.

Allwet
Allwet

I have a buddy with the RMS on a Glock 22, so I called him up and low and behold , guess what was off getting repaired.I like the idea of the red dot on a pistol still...so being reluctant to just buy an RMS(I'm a Trijicon guy, shrug) I went out snooping around with the intent of MAYBE getting one as a test subject, and putting it on a Buckmark to play around and see how I liked the set up.Time will cure the failures most likely I figure, but if you aren't familiar with a Buck mark, the best way I can describe the action is that it has a partial slide.The small rail on top does not cycle with the slide, but my intent here is see how Iliked the set up, and worse case, if I didn't like it, it would sit over a 1.5 x 4.5 Nikon on one of my AR's, or slap it on an HB'd 10-22..


I ended up getting a Fastfire 2 for about half the price-until the bugs are worked out, I just can't go whole hog on an RMS.So my comments are really only directed towards having one of these on a pistol. The mount puts the dot about 1 1/8" over bore, which isn't too bad, and was easy enough to pick up. I ran about 10 mags through it, and decided that I really like the set up-it is very easy to get used to, and gave me about 10 years back as far getting the "eyes on target" again.

Then it went on a 586 Trooper Special SW .357, 30 rounds...a bit more time needed to get used to the sight picture, as now we are almost an inch an 3/8's over, but no issues arose.Before the crying starts, take a peek at Jerry Miculec's You Tube vid's- no problem with a revolver and a red dot that sits a good deal higher overbore.


Last but not least , I put it on an AR, for back up to the aforementioned Nikon (which is low mounted, on a flat top), in 2 positions.One at the 12:00 , over the scope, and then on a drop down 45 degree offset mount.3 guys played all afternoon

with it-no issues.If we had a riser, it would've gone on as a primary , but no such luck.


That day sold 2 RMS's, and I'm sold on the "mini's", but before I'd bet my life mounting one a "real caliber"  auto loading carry pistol, I'll have to wait for the failures to get worked out.That's all I'm concluding here...one of those RMS's is gonna be mine, and it will live on the 586, if or when it fails, I'll let you know.


Have a good one-

DJ


Sightmark
Sightmark

To make a point, Sightmark® products are manufactured in Asia and we take pride in the quality each unit yields. All of our units are backed by a limited lifetime warranty, as well as an experienced, professional technical support staff at our headquarters here in Mansfield, Texas. We work very closely with our manufacturer and a majority of product design and development takes place here at our offices and lab, which is ISO (International Organization for Standardization) certified. In fact, all Sightmark® Gen 3 night vision units are assembled in house. Should our customers experience any defects, their units are shipped here for repair under the warranty. We also send replacement parts directly to our customers more so than other companies. Many of our customers are LE, military and competition shooters…hence out Triple Duty® concept. We are proud to be an American company contributing to our local economy. Even though 90% of Sightmark® units aren’t manufactured here in the states, they hold unbeatable quality for an affordable price, and are covered by a solid warranty.

Ken Siverts
Ken Siverts

On rifles, despite the heavier recoil, I don't think the wear is as great as on the pistol. With the small sight mounted to a slide, it is really taking a lot more beating than on the frame-based stationary rifle optic. IMHO My Deltapoint is at Leupold for service. The 6.5 dot stopped staying on target and stopped adjusting to point of aim after 1,500 rounds. My Trijicon RMR has been back to the factory for the glass falling out during normal use on a Glock 19 after a few thousand rounds. I have the battery only model and I have had some intermittent dot disappearances too.

Ken Siverts
Ken Siverts

On rifles, despite the heavier recoil, I don't think the wear is as great as on the pistol. With the small sight mounted to a slide, it is really taking a lot more beating than on the frame-based stationary rifle optic. IMHO

My Deltapoint is at Leupold for service. The 6.5 dot stopped staying on target and stopped adjusting to point of aim after 1,500 rounds. My Trijicon RMR has been back to the factory for the glass falling out during normal use on a Glock 19 after a few thousand rounds. I have the battery only model and I have had some intermittent dot disappearances too.

Michael W. Perry
Michael W. Perry

I'd love to see law enforcement adopt these red-dot sights in larger numbers. Many police shooting deaths, I suspect, come because in a pinch officers feel they must aim for the center of mass rather than some place with fewer vital spots. We recently had a police shooting in my Seattle neighborhood where a man with mental issues was shot dead after brandishing a piece of rebar at an officer who'd slipped and fell. With red-dot sights providing better aiming, that might not have happened. Avoiding one costly legal settlement could cover the cost of equipping an entire police department with red-dot sights.

Michael W. Perry
Michael W. Perry

I'd love to see law enforcement adopt these red-dot sights in larger numbers. Many police shooting deaths, I suspect, come because in a pinch officers feel they must aim for the center of mass rather than some place with fewer vital spots.

We recently had a police shooting in my Seattle neighborhood where a man with mental issues was shot dead after brandishing a piece of rebar at an officer who'd slipped and fell. With red-dot sights providing better aiming, that might not have happened.

Avoiding one costly legal settlement could cover the cost of equipping an entire police department with red-dot sights.

Andren Essen
Andren Essen

Why OH why do consumers fall for the oldest trick in the book. Red lasers for consumers, Green lasers for the more discerning and UV for military. There are tactical reasons, you figure it out.

Andren Essen
Andren Essen

Why OH why do consumers fall for the oldest trick in the book. Red lasers for consumers, Green lasers for the more discerning and UV for military.

There are tactical reasons, you figure it out.

sabasarge
sabasarge

Great article, but as to the comments, personally I wouldn't give a single penny to Suarez, for far too many reasons to go into here.....but trust me, the more you know the more you'll agree.

Tom
Tom

I used Ultradot Red Dots on both my High Standard Military Model 106 .22RF and on my Rock River Arms and Ed Masecki .45 Colt pistols in NRA bullseye competitions for over 20 years with no problems. The Ultra Dot was mounted on the slide of the 45s and took quite a pounding when being fired. Probably something like 30,000+ rounds of 45 wadcutter over the years were fired in practice and competitions including heavy rains at Camp Perry. At that time Ultradots cost a bit over $100. Aimpoints were much more. Ultradots dominated the firing lines. Enabled lots of older guys to continue in the bullseye game when iron sights were unusable. Tom

Tom
Tom

I used Ultradot Red Dots on both my High Standard Military Model 106 .22RF and on my Rock River Arms and Ed Masecki .45 Colt pistols in NRA bullseye competitions for over 20 years with no problems. The Ultra Dot was mounted on the slide of the 45s and took quite a pounding when being fired. Probably something like 30,000+ rounds of 45 wadcutter over the years were fired in practice and competitions including heavy rains at Camp Perry.

At that time Ultradots cost a bit over $100. Aimpoints were much more. Ultradots dominated the firing lines. Enabled lots of older guys to continue in the bullseye game when iron sights were unusable.

Tom

Defens
Defens

Just found this website through a referral from another blog. It's a major coup to have Jeff publishing articles here! I've taken classes with him since TriCon was just starting out, and in fact helped him edit his training manual. Jeff's one of the finest instructors I've ever trained with, from a list that includes many well-known names. It's good also to see his commentary on red dots. I've recently put a DeltaPoint on my woods carry revolver (a .44 mag) as well as my home defense pistol - a Springfield Tactical. In both cases, the sights were a boon to my nearly-60 year old eyeballs.

Defens
Defens

Just found this website through a referral from another blog. It's a major coup to have Jeff publishing articles here! I've taken classes with him since TriCon was just starting out, and in fact helped him edit his training manual. Jeff's one of the finest instructors I've ever trained with, from a list that includes many well-known names.

It's good also to see his commentary on red dots. I've recently put a DeltaPoint on my woods carry revolver (a .44 mag) as well as my home defense pistol - a Springfield Tactical. In both cases, the sights were a boon to my nearly-60 year old eyeballs.

TFA303
TFA303

Count me as another very satisfied customer for the RMR/Glock combo by TSD. I'm 43 now, and the red dot makes sight acquisition far easier than I even hoped - it makes me faster and more accurate. Having the sight milled into the slide provides a super-solid mount; I might use a dovetail mount to try out the concept, but it's well worth the cost to have a permanent mount for a carry pistol. One suggestion - the adjustable versions of the RMR are particularly helpful if you have anything wrong with your eyes that causes starbursts, particularly astigmatism or some kinds of LASIK.

TFA303
TFA303

Count me as another very satisfied customer for the RMR/Glock combo by TSD.

I'm 43 now, and the red dot makes sight acquisition far easier than I even hoped - it makes me faster and more accurate. Having the sight milled into the slide provides a super-solid mount; I might use a dovetail mount to try out the concept, but it's well worth the cost to have a permanent mount for a carry pistol.

One suggestion - the adjustable versions of the RMR are particularly helpful if you have anything wrong with your eyes that causes starbursts, particularly astigmatism or some kinds of LASIK.

themonk
themonk

I am not really a huge fan of Gabe Suarez but WarriorTalk is the place to lean about RMR pistols and also a massive informative thread over at pistol-forum.com. I disagree with the author that the rear sight should be in front of the RMR. This shortens your sight picture and also takes away the natural sight alignment. I would add that most holster makers make RMR compatible holster you just need to contact them.

themonk
themonk

I am not really a huge fan of Gabe Suarez but WarriorTalk is the place to lean about RMR pistols and also a massive informative thread over at pistol-forum.com.

I disagree with the author that the rear sight should be in front of the RMR. This shortens your sight picture and also takes away the natural sight alignment.

I would add that most holster makers make RMR compatible holster you just need to contact them.

Paul Carlson
Paul Carlson

Solid over view and solid questions. I see the use of the red dot on defensive handguns moving in parallel with the way we saw proliferation of red dots on rifles as well. There is no question that the red dot sight at distances that require the use of sights for getting the hit you need is faster. What is important is why. Simply put, the red dot sight works well with how our body, especially our eyes tend to work in a scenario where the stress of a lethal event is present. Of course, due to the change in how blood flows in the eye, we have a strong physiological tendency to want to focus on the threat. To effectively use iron sights, we MUST remove that physiological focus from the threat and instead focus on the front sight. The red dot optics remove this requirement. Because the dot is superimposed on the same plane as the threat, there is no need to break the physiological focus on the threat. You will see both the dot and the threat just as you need to to get the hits you need. I am currently flying to Salt Lake City to run 4 days of defensive shooting classes and in my checked luggage is a Glock 17 with an RMR. My only question is will the sights be durable to last when folks run them to high round counts. Time will tell!

Paul Carlson
Paul Carlson

Solid over view and solid questions. I see the use of the red dot on defensive handguns moving in parallel with the way we saw proliferation of red dots on rifles as well.

There is no question that the red dot sight at distances that require the use of sights for getting the hit you need is faster. What is important is why. Simply put, the red dot sight works well with how our body, especially our eyes tend to work in a scenario where the stress of a lethal event is present. Of course, due to the change in how blood flows in the eye, we have a strong physiological tendency to want to focus on the threat. To effectively use iron sights, we MUST remove that physiological focus from the threat and instead focus on the front sight. The red dot optics remove this requirement. Because the dot is superimposed on the same plane as the threat, there is no need to break the physiological focus on the threat. You will see both the dot and the threat just as you need to to get the hits you need.

I am currently flying to Salt Lake City to run 4 days of defensive shooting classes and in my checked luggage is a Glock 17 with an RMR.

My only question is will the sights be durable to last when folks run them to high round counts. Time will tell!

David from Alabama
David from Alabama

I'd love to hear Jeff's ideas on how to train with the RDS on a pistol. I have an RMR on a G23 to test, but have difficulty picking up the dot as reliably as I would like.

Kurt
Kurt

Agree 100% with the first poster. My TSD G19 tier1 is a tac driver. They are not the person who invented this but they are the ones who mastered it. onesourcetactical.com go Suarez Cartel

DerekW
DerekW

As a data point for dot size usefulness, I regularly shoot my G19 (ATOM mount) on a steel silhouette at 200yds with a 6.5MOA RMR-07. Dot goes on the head (obscures it) and ding ding ding to COM. The only time the dot has been too big is trying to shoot 1" pasters at >15yds, but I'm not sure if there's a real-world corollary for me where I'd need a smaller dot.

DerekW
DerekW

As a data point for dot size usefulness, I regularly shoot my G19 (ATOM mount) on a steel silhouette at 200yds with a 6.5MOA RMR-07. Dot goes on the head (obscures it) and ding ding ding to COM.

The only time the dot has been too big is trying to shoot 1" pasters at >15yds, but I'm not sure if there's a real-world corollary for me where I'd need a smaller dot.

MattM
MattM

I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing. Don't get me wrong, these are awesome and would be effective additions to a carry gun. I'm laughing at the idiocracy that would surround the proliferation of them! Both links are to Amazon listing that command a sticker price that matches, or exceeds, the value of the gun itself! Why is it that some companies can come up with a red dot for >$100 but companies like Trijicon and Leupold consistently command above $500 prices for EVERYTHING they sell? Bottom line, in EVERY and I mean EVERY subculture you'll find the "brand names" that report (and to be fair, most times deliver) quality products, but you know for a fact that a majority of the sticker price is for nothing more than the name on the side of the item! In gun circles, it's companies like Trijicon, Leupold, Aimpoint and EOTech. All of us want one of these, but budget constraints more often than not have us using NCStar or SightMark. While we drool over gun magazine pictures of sexy ARs with the latest ACOG, we are most likely putting rounds downrange with a UTG or Barska! I bought an NCStar red dot five years ago. It has been swapped between an AR and AK-74. it has never lost zero, come loose or had "ghosting" or other sight issues. While i would like the latest "tactical" accessories, I have come to realize that they aren't really all that necessary. They won't make you a better shot, steer the rounds on target more than any other sight or give you a massage while you operate them. In most cases an NCStar sight can be just as good.

MattM
MattM

I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing. Don't get me wrong, these are awesome and would be effective additions to a carry gun. I'm laughing at the idiocracy that would surround the proliferation of them! Both links are to Amazon listing that command a sticker price that matches, or exceeds, the value of the gun itself! Why is it that some companies can come up with a red dot for >$100 but companies like Trijicon and Leupold consistently command above $500 prices for EVERYTHING they sell? Bottom line, in EVERY and I mean EVERY subculture you'll find the "brand names" that report (and to be fair, most times deliver) quality products, but you know for a fact that a majority of the sticker price is for nothing more than the name on the side of the item! In gun circles, it's companies like Trijicon, Leupold, Aimpoint and EOTech. All of us want one of these, but budget constraints more often than not have us using NCStar or SightMark. While we drool over gun magazine pictures of sexy ARs with the latest ACOG, we are most likely putting rounds downrange with a UTG or Barska! I bought an NCStar red dot five years ago. It has been swapped between an AR and AK-74. it has never lost zero, come loose or had "ghosting" or other sight issues. While i would like the latest "tactical" accessories, I have come to realize that they aren't really all that necessary. They won't make you a better shot, steer the rounds on target more than any other sight or give you a massage while you operate them.

In most cases an NCStar sight can be just as good.

Not Your Mother
Not Your Mother

The single best way to get a red dot sight on a Glock is through OneSourceTactical.com. No affiliation, just a happy customer.

Ken Siverts
Ken Siverts

Crap...my Deltapoint is a triangle. My RMR is a 6.5 dot. Ah the joys of thumb typing on a phone...

Mark
Mark

Perry, You watch too many movies and do not understand the purpose of center mass shot placement. A modivated individual who is lethal threat will not be stopped by a shot to the leg or arm. This has been documented over and over. The mentally ill along with those who are under the influence of drugs or alcohol feel less to pain do to their mental state. Example: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout If you don't think someone can close the distance between you and them in a couple of seconds and kill you with a single strike to the head with piece of steel, you are miss informed. Google "21 foot rule". Fight or Flight: Second under high stress, you blood consolidates to the vital organs reduceing blood flow to the brain. With less blood going to the brain, fine motor skills and ocular performance decrease rapidly. This makes it nearly impossible to shoot weapons out of the threat's hands or hit a moving lim like TV super heros. If you have participated in any force on force training using Consim or UTM type equipment you would experience this for yourself. To summarize the only way to truely stop a threat from harming you or someone else is center mass or head shots. Second the only way to overcome the human body's physiological response to accute stress (i.e. adrenaline dump) is to train people to point their weapon system directly outward from there chest with both hands. This naturally lends itself to a center mass shots. Almost always in those situations the shooter will not see their sites, only the threat. "Aiming" does not occur, but the body is able to perform gross motor skills movements. Educate yourself or get professional training before making such statements.

Mark
Mark

Perry,

You watch too many movies and do not understand the purpose of center mass shot placement.

A modivated individual who is lethal threat will not be stopped by a shot to the leg or arm. This has been documented over and over. The mentally ill along with those who are under the influence of drugs or alcohol feel less to pain do to their mental state.

Example:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

If you don't think someone can close the distance between you and them in a couple of seconds and kill you with a single strike to the head with piece of steel, you are miss informed. Google "21 foot rule".

Fight or Flight:

Second under high stress, you blood consolidates to the vital organs reduceing blood flow to the brain. With less blood going to the brain, fine motor skills and ocular performance decrease rapidly. This makes it nearly impossible to shoot weapons out of the threat's hands or hit a moving lim like TV super heros.

If you have participated in any force on force training using Consim or UTM type equipment you would experience this for yourself.

To summarize the only way to truely stop a threat from harming you or someone else is center mass or head shots.

Second the only way to overcome the human body's physiological response to accute stress (i.e. adrenaline dump) is to train people to point their weapon system directly outward from there chest with both hands. This naturally lends itself to a center mass shots.

Almost always in those situations the shooter will not see their sites, only the threat. "Aiming" does not occur, but the body is able to perform gross motor skills movements.

Educate yourself or get professional training before making such statements.

Jeff Gonzales
Jeff Gonzales

We aren't getting any younger and these are certainly great advancements in technology to help accommodate. Good to see you again, hope all is well.

Jeff Gonzales
Jeff Gonzales

Howdy Paul, so far in our testing we have seen great promise for the durability. In our 12 month evaluation we put through over 10K rounds and saw no issues of note. There have been some who have seen screws loosen up when the thread locker is heated from extended firing, but that is "extended" firing and now a known to be monitored. For the average shooter I doubt they would see the same results.

Jeff Gonzales
Jeff Gonzales

"If the irons are not mounted behind the RMR or if the RMR is sitting too high, this will be impossible to do." Good lord...how can you possibly say this and be taken seriously?

Jeff Gonzales
Jeff Gonzales

"If the irons are not mounted behind the RMR or if the RMR is sitting too high, this will be impossible to do."

Good lord...how can you possibly say this and be taken seriously?

Not Your Mother
Not Your Mother

If you used one of those inferior mounting techniques, which include dovetail mounts above the irons, or placing the rear irons in front of the RMR, then you will have lots of trouble. The short answer is get it correctly mounted in a milled slide and look for the irons as your guide to the dot. Practice presentations and before long, you'll find the dot before you find the iron alignment. If the irons are not mounted behind the RMR or if the RMR is sitting too high, this will be impossible to do. Look for the irons, find the dot.

Not Your Mother
Not Your Mother

If you used one of those inferior mounting techniques, which include dovetail mounts above the irons, or placing the rear irons in front of the RMR, then you will have lots of trouble.

The short answer is get it correctly mounted in a milled slide and look for the irons as your guide to the dot. Practice presentations and before long, you'll find the dot before you find the iron alignment. If the irons are not mounted behind the RMR or if the RMR is sitting too high, this will be impossible to do.

Look for the irons, find the dot.

Jeff Gonzales
Jeff Gonzales

That's a good question. Probably not the best venue to give detailed answers, but a simple drill to practice is the presentation. Most folks make the mistake of hunting for the dot. Mount the pistol as usual as if aligning the iron sights and that should help improve your technique. Good luck.

Kurt
Kurt

Go to WarriorTalk and pour through the thread on RMR pistols.

Not Your Mother
Not Your Mother

You have obviously never: A) Spent much trigger time with a Red Dot Glock. B) Ran it hard in realistic training (as in, dropping, getting it dirty, and all the other rigors an actual "fight" might result in)

Defens
Defens

Matt, I understand the sticker shock, but the quality/price balance certainly isn't limited to red dot sights. Take a look at rifle scopes - depending on your purpose and desire for reliability, it's not uncommon at all to install a scope that costs as much as, or more, than the rifle. I have a Nightforce on a Remington 700 Target/Tactical - scope $ more than gun $. Absolutely superb optics. I also have a nice little Mueller scope on a Savage .17 HMR - scope $ considerably less than rifle, but great optics for the price and purpose.

Common Sense
Common Sense

Firstly, all the "name brand" - Trijicon, Leupold, Aimpoint, EoTech- are made in the USA brands that have solid warranties and good customer service. I also read this article as "what to put on a gun when that gun means your life". That is how I read all articles, and if they don't meet my expectations then I discard them- I don't shoot IDPA race guns etc. If it really means your life then NCStar is NOT good enough for me. If however you are out plinking then buy whatever you like.

Not Your Mother
Not Your Mother

You have obviously never:

A) Spent much trigger time with a Red Dot Glock.

B) Ran it hard in realistic training (as in, dropping, getting it dirty, and all the other rigors an actual "fight" might result in)

Defens
Defens

Matt, I understand the sticker shock, but the quality/price balance certainly isn't limited to red dot sights. Take a look at rifle scopes - depending on your purpose and desire for reliability, it's not uncommon at all to install a scope that costs as much as, or more, than the rifle.

I have a Nightforce on a Remington 700 Target/Tactical - scope $ more than gun $. Absolutely superb optics.

I also have a nice little Mueller scope on a Savage .17 HMR - scope $ considerably less than rifle, but great optics for the price and purpose.

Guy
Guy

You want to pay for a quality product made in the USA that supports US workers but then compare it to stuff made in China. I'm glad that your chinese equipment has worked for you. I don't doubt that they do put decent products on shelves but if your product is defective then good luck. With all those companies mentioned, you are sure to get a quality piece in the first place and you will have a warranty that beats the competitors as well.

Common Sense
Common Sense

Firstly, all the "name brand" - Trijicon, Leupold, Aimpoint, EoTech- are made in the USA brands that have solid warranties and good customer service.

I also read this article as "what to put on a gun when that gun means your life". That is how I read all articles, and if they don't meet my expectations then I discard them- I don't shoot IDPA race guns etc.

If it really means your life then NCStar is NOT good enough for me. If however you are out plinking then buy whatever you like.

Dave
Dave

Huh, I'd always thought that NCStars were for .22s or airsoft and that quality red dots were outside my budget. Sounds like I need to take another look at the cheaper options.

Lombok
Lombok

@Jeff GonzalesJeff,

I am trying to decide rear sight location with an RMR on a G19. In the Q&A you said "so that both sights are on the same plane in regards to the field of view." Can you explain what you mean by this? I like the idea of my primary sight [RMR] being the most rearward sight and also think it will make holster compatibility somewhat easier. Will the red dot still sit on top of the front sight [co-witness] if the rear iron is in front of the RMR? Thanks for the great info.

NUKE
NUKE

Guy. You are absolutely correct. If you want an accessory to operate like it should buy American made. Cry once (the price) shoot happy forever.. Save money cry every time at the range. I tried a China knock off, and couldn't take it off my weapon fast enough. Buy USA !

Sightmark
Sightmark

To make a point, Sightmark® products are manufactured in Asia and we take pride in the quality each unit yields. All of our units are backed by a limited lifetime warranty, as well as an experienced, professional technical support staff at our headquarters here in Mansfield, Texas. We work very closely with our manufacturers and a majority of our product design and development takes place here at our offices and lab, which is ISO (International Organization for Standardization) certified. In fact, all Sightmark® Gen 3 night vision units are assembled in house.

Should our customers experience any defects, their units are shipped here for repair under the warranty. We also send replacement parts directly to our customers more so than other companies.

Many of our customers are LE, military and competition shooters…hence our Triple Duty® concept. We are proud to be an American company contributing to our local economy. Even though 90 percent of Sightmark® units aren’t manufactured here in the states, they hold unbeatable quality for an affordable price, and are covered by a solid warranty.

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