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Over the weekend I attended the final hours of my NRA RSO (Range Safety Officer), Rifle and Shotgun Instructors training. While I won’t get into the NRA’s embargo on the word “weapon,” or that a few instructors freaked out when I carried a firearm with the muzzle pointed at the ground, I did learn something from our readers on Facebook I’d like to share with everyone.
Throughout my time in the Military, I’d always referred to M855/SS109 5.56 Ammunition (Green Tip) as armor piercing rounds or AP. For the life of me I can’t recall where I first heard that mentioned, but it was fairly common for it to be referred to as that.
One of the final taskers for the NRA courses was to construct a training aid and you’ll see a photo below of what I put together.
As you’ll see, I have the green tip marked “AP Tip,” which is how I explained my training aid to the class as well. (If you’re wondering, it was made from a cardboard tube, floral foam, paint and a little creative thinking).
After a few people pointed out that M855 isn’t AP in the Facebook comments of the photo I posted, I started doing some digging. It turns out that sure enough, M855 was removed from the ATF’s list of AP rounds. I haven’t been able to track down when this change took place, but I thought it was important to share to all those that have considered M855 to be AP rounds like I did.
While having a Steel Penetrator Tip, this doesn’t constitute M855/SS109 as “Armor Piercing.” The round was designed for increased penetration at longer ranges to combat SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) issues though.
Things may or may not be clearer once you read how the Federal Government defines AP ammunition in 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17).
(17)(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means-
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.
A few things to take note of is that the classification as “armor piercing” is for bullets only, not the complete cartridge. Despite the mention of handgun caliber above, you can take that to mean that it’s a round that has been made as a handgun caliber at some point.
The bullet (projectile) must also have a core made entirely out of the metals listed above, or be a full jacketed bullet with a jacket weighing more than 25% of its overall weight. This means that the SS109/M855 bullets wouldn’t be covered, as their cores are partly steel, and partly lead. Lead isn’t listed in the metals above. Furthermore, as you’ll see in the list below, the ATF has specifically stated that the SS109/M855 bullets are exempted from AP status.
Hopefully that clears up some confusion for you like it did for me. You can rest easy that when a range calls for no AP rounds that you’ll be safe using M855 if desired. If you’re in the market for ammo, be sure to check out our sponsor Lucky Gunner for great online ammo prices!
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I suppose the better penetration of the green tipped round must show up at a distance, as suggested in this article.
I had already fired 223 rem FMJ rounds through 6 inches of plywood sheets, was ready to see something with even better penetration. But the main purpose of my experimentation was to find wall material to stop a bullet, for the house. Conclusion: I can't afford whatever it would take. Anyway........
Today I fired some 5.56 green tips and some 223 rem copper jacketed, under exact same conditions, 15 foot from target; target consisted of seven pieces of 9 or 10 gauge steel sheets each set an inch deeper than the one before. So seven sheets of steel with an inch or so between each sheet.
First I fired a single shot of 223 rem FMJ, which I had already been using in my new AR15, an impressive little weapon. Fun too! I went to check penetration, and found a clean small hole in sheet 1, a bigger hole in sheet 2, and a good dent but no penetration through sheet 3. I then fired 4 more 223 rounds to check for consistent results. All the same.
Then I targeted a 5.56 green tip, excited to see how much more penetration I would get. ZIP. Exact same results as with the 223 rem FMJ.
Next experiment will be setting up the same but firing from 100 yards.
If 223 FMJ penetrate the same as 5.56 Greenies, I will stay with the 223 and save the slightly higher cost of the green tips.
NRA STAND AND FIGHT
@rottenrollin Very interesting post and scientific approach to collect information.
Did you do a test from 100 yards? I would like to read about your results.
@cathy reed read my post above yours.
To find any or all, go to Gunbroker.com.
I have been reading through the last few pages of comments, mostly about not finding 22 cal ammo anywhere. I live in N.C. and it is readily available at most large stores like Dick Sporting goods and Walmart. they do limit quantity you can buy at each purchase. Most often they sell in bulk boxes. I have not seen boxes of 50 in some time. the smallest boxes are 100's with most being 200 to 500 round boxes. There are tons of on line stores that will ship to your home if you live in one of those states that allow shipment to homes.
The indoor range where I live (Jacksonville, NC) will not allow green tip 5.56 due to the 25 % steel core. They are not armor piercing but some data does list them as anti material rounds. This meaning I believe applies to body armor. they will pierce body armor. The indoor range does not allow them because of that fact but doe to the fact that they tear up the steel stopping plates at the end of the range lane. the latest milspec sheets (2009) do list green tip as armor piercing.
AP stands for Anti-personnel and true armour piercing rounds are M993 and M995 and had a tungsten core. Even the military has trouble finding these rounds and they're commonly used for M209 SAW because. They usually cost around $2 a round and are linked, unable to be sold to civilians however civilians owning M993 and M995 is not illegal. But if you find it you can expect to pay around $5/round. M885 and SS109 is able to penetrate steel such as cars but we shouldn't expect it to penetrate steel body armor.
@Kelhoffer91 AP means armor piercing. APERS means anti-personnel
@Kelhoffer91 Not sure where you get your information but I thought I'd make a few comments..
1) AP stands for Armor Piercing, as the other poster mentioned.
2) The military has absolutely no trouble finding these rounds however they are not frequently used since the M855 / M855A1 are much more efficient and more effective against "soft targets". The M855A1 is known as "green ammo" and replaces the lead with copper to make the round more eco friendly but it also out performs the M885 in soft target consistency as well as hard target penetration.
3. As far as the M993/M995 being $2 a round and linked, that is not the case. Both are available as individual rounds on stripper clips and cost less than $1 per round based on the current DOD ammunition catalog.
-M855- 24 cents per round
-M855A1- 36 cents per round
-M995/M996 linked- 38 cents per round
-M995 (individual)- 90 cents per round
4) M993 is not fired in the M249 (we don't have a "209" SAW). The M249 fires a 5.56 round, generally a mix of four -M855 and one M856 tracer repeating throughout the 200 round belt. M993 is 7.62 and is used in the M240B, M24 and "the pig" the M60.
-Active Duty Army, M249 / M2 gunner in Afghanistan and Iraq
stevetwilson1984 Corey A They are trying a little at a time. Obama is still trying initiatives though Eos and the BATF. People that live in CA, MA, NJ> and NY have afar less this year than last so we are losing a bit at a time. They cannot muster support for a sweeping ban (though they've been trying to renew the assault weapons ban yearly since it expired) but their goal is clear: ban all civilian ownership eventually.
What a fool, stmmeel head encased in brass to adhere to barrel rifling is my expertise. A 22 mag will travel through both doors of a standard vehicle and remain in motion.
George Soros became a billionaire by disturbing markets and reaping the windfalls.
This recent panic buying /price surge sure fits the description.
@Guest George Soros is a clear and present danger to the United States of America, and the rest of the world for that matter, and he should be dealt with as such.
so glad I took up reloading after the last ammo shortage, I thought, damn it's so easy to yell "shortage" and all of a sudden I'm paying a dollar a round for plinking, F^&*! Seriously, you don't need to lose your gun rights, just not saving any for a rainy day would be just as effective! just my opinion...
To ALL the Idiots who Blame the AR Pistol makers, remember, Ruger made a Folding Stock 13" barreled Mini 14 called the AC556F, without the stock, it Would be a Pistol. Ruger began making this gun in 1973, hardly a New Thing. Enjoy!
@Charles Easter The AC556 in all variations is considered a machine gun. A machine gun is not considered a rifle or pistol regardless of the barrel length or type of stock, it is considered a machine gun. The short barreled versions if they were made in semi-automatic only would be considered Short Barreled Rifles (SBR) and not considered a pistol at all by the ATF. And to be clear Ruger has never made such an animal. To be considered a pistol, one would have to remove the full auto parts, remove the stock, remachine or even remake the receiver and any other parts in accordance with the ATF so it could not be readily converted back to a machine gun, get ATF approval and file paperwork to remove it from the National Firearms Act (NFA) registry. So what kind of idiot would ruin a $25000 machine gun to do this? It is absolutely the fault of manufacturers of pistol versions of ARs and Aks that this ridiculous law allowed the ATF to ban certain ammo. There is even confirmed evidence that at least one manufacturer made a pistol version knowing that this would happen and did it anyway. Get your facts straight.
@BartKatz Excellent! But stay vigilant Patriots, they certainly aren't waiving any white flags, more like they are falling back and regrouping...
.22 ammo is NOT that hard to get. They are manufacturing it everyday. Stores and gun shops are holding it back so they can charge you high prices for it, under the guise that it is scarce. Find an employee that is not afraid to talk to you.
@bayman55 How do you know "what it is supposed to be" when prices are jacked up all over? And how do you know its being held by customs at the border?
@bayman55 THIS IS NOT TRUE! I am the middleman, local gun shop. CCI is in Canada. 22s are being held in customs at the border. The U.S. can't make enough to stay on top of the demand. I have 21 distributors same as everyone else and its all allocated. As far as mark up, if I can't get it for what is is suppose to be, I don't get it.
@bayman55 that's BS.. my local Walmart hasn't had 22LR 99.9% of the time for 3 years now.and my local gun dealer only has Mexican or south American junk.. and when he does get good brand ammo its at a high price because distributers are the ones jacking up the prices...
@bayman55 i work at bass pro shops, we get .22 ammo in regularly. It is the people coming in as soon as we open and buying as much as they can that are the problem, we limit it just for that reason so everybody can get some. They get around this by bringing friends/sons/daughters to buy it for them. We get in buckets of 1600, bricks of 550, 333, 100, 50. CCI, winchester, federal, and another i cant remember right now.
@silverorange @bayman55 Obviously Bass Pro isn't ordering enough. I could duplicate the same at any grocery store who isn't fulfilling the customers needs. If Bass Pro can't increase their order quantity, then it's the middle or maker who isn't keeping up with demand, just like markets have been for decades. If demand is high, you increase production or else lose on the added sales. If you band together, something folks believe the ammo makers are doing, you don't expand your production business, you triple and quadruple your prices for doing the same amount of work.
A lot of people being ripped off by so called, we stand with you, gun shops and online web sites. Crooks taking advantage of the ammo ban scare, to make big profits.
@bayman55 its the middle man making all the profit. manufacturer sells it to supply warehouses.they jack up the prices so bad at times.my dealer is buying foreign 22s to cell because of how much they want for CCI or other name brands...
Seems like were finding out more about why this sudden focus on this ammo:
Hammond said the timing is not a coincidence.
“There is a massive backlog of M855 ammunition from NATO, which was about to come onto the American market as a result of the fact NATO is being encouraged to go from lead to copper ammunition,” Hammond said.
“This action, if it were successful, would [make illegal] the sale and possession of that to individuals in America of this massive backlog, which is coming on line from a government surplus.”
@BartKatz I don't believe this pistol is really an issue because it's not an autoloading pistol. It's a break barrel single shot. I don't believe this qualifies as a "handgun" for the "designed and intended for a handgun" test under the proposed framework. I can't remember where I read it, either in the TItle itself, or the framework document.
@Corey A @BartKatz No, these are the kinds causing the problems and the ban.. http://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/diamondback-firearms/db15pb7-223-pstl-7.5in-blk/
no I disagree. The problem isn't the AR pistols because in time that fad would simply fade away and law abiding citizens should be able to buy them and any ammo they can afford. But the ban won't fade away if it goes into effect. The gun grabbers are just looking for justification to do what they plan to do anyway. They'll always take the path of least resistance first. This is low hanging fruit. And I'm sure there are a good number of paid trolls working these forums trying to turn us against each other and against the ammo manufacturers and gun selling websites. Divide and conquer is their goal.
@Corey A The tested, tried and true method is "shake them up with something big" then "after all the screaming, there would be a CompromisE, ie, look, we will work with you," last but not least "take what you wanted to take all along, with so many that don't want to fight for anything say ("go ahead that's o.k. I don't use it, have one, want one, care if someone else doesn't have a chance to have one"). And suddenly we are scratching ours heads trying to figure out how seemingly overnight, everything that was taken for granted is gone.
Corey A... I totally agree. go on gun broker dot com.. thousands of rds of CCI 22s that I haven't seen any place for over a year.they are being bid off at massive prices..no website has any m855 or ss109 at a good price..70 cents around is total BS..gun broker dot com again many thousands of rds being sold big profits.. I just got a case m855 41 cents a bullet 414.00.. on gun broker for same case is as high as 900.00.total BS. I'm hoping people pay it then the ATF doesn't ban it..
@duck762 @BartKatz Some time ago I was standing in line at the local Dick's sporting goods trying to get 22lr for the guys shooting league, and heard the following " I don't shoot, but I have 30,000 rounds in the basement, in case everything falls apart I can trade it for food" the lowlife got the last bulk pack of 22 on the shelf, and you know things are bad when the league shooters will settle for "bucket-o-bullets" bulk packs.
@duck762 I see zero bids on the really high asking prices. So it really isn't selling for that.
its the middle man that supplies the dealers with ammo jacking up the prices.but it doesn't help that people buy in bulk then put it for sale on gun broker for triple the price.
@duck762 All of you with all the experience, do you have any idea what it cost to produce a 22 long rifle vs a 223 round of ammo. The profit is higher for a 223 than for a 22, so why not produce lesser of something that costs as much and more of what has a higher profit.
That is pure BS. Middlemen made the profit not the manufacturers The price of m855 today has no connection to the price that was paid for it to the manufacturer. If this ban goes through it will hurt all manufacturers of m855 here in the us and other countries that export to the US. Only those who have government contracts will survive. It's the government driving up the cost, not the manufacturers. Without interference from gun grabbers the price of m855 had just finally fallen to pre-Sandy Hook prices. So it was time for Obama and his cronies to create a new crisis to force prices back up, disrupt supply and distract us all on the Obama care repeal and his illegal amnesty And his lack of any meaningful foreign policit's and general lack of leadership.
You fools don't get it. Who has profited from ammunition and gun bans? 1989 US firearms Mfg's made large profits from the ban of imported assault weapons. 1994 Crime bill increased gun and magazine sales x20. Ammo mfg's have made big profits from the recent run on 22 ammo.
@Corey A We are being ripped off.
@Corey A The manufacturer's are doing it. They are the new OPEC and laughing all the way to the bank as they have FOX news spread the fear that it is the government, and soon everything will be banned, taken away, etc....
@stevetwilson1984 Just what I thought, Troll
@stevetwilson1984 You'd have said the same thing to the Minute Men, troll
You honestly believe there is an actual demand driven shortage of 22 ammo? You think the ammo companies wouldnt rather just sell more of it to make a bigger profit? Someone is buying it up and limiting supply intentionally to raise the price. And that is either the government or some meddler like Bloomberg... And they are probably using the profits they are making to turn around and buy even more ammo supplies. There is no way demand alone has raised the price this much and this long. And ammo manufacturers are baffled because they know how much they are making and know the supply is out there.
@Corey A Agreed. The manufactures aren't at fault for anything but I couldn't say the same for the Government. Folks tend to collect when they buy in this sport so there's a bit of that with all purchases, has been for a long time. Folks who buy ammo today are getting ripped off in price but we can blame that on Government, not the people who own guns. $45 for a brick of .22 long rifle?
@fred 845 223 isn't the only caliber, Look at 45 Colt, used to be about $25/50rds now it's $48/50. What makes that cartridge so expensive? Reeds in Walker Mn says it's his supplier. I say it's cowboy action shooters buying up everything in sight, Cases, Bullets, bullet moulds, everything. Savvy wholesalers, and some unscrupulous dealers, are holding back making prices and consequently profits, soar.
Also, MFGs can make up to 3.5 MILLION 22 LR rounds A DAY - that's 17.5 MILLION rounds a week! 9.1 BILLION rds per year!!!!! (CCI isn't the only 22LR mfg). Where the hell are all those rounds? I surmise that the wholesalers are hoarding/Holding back shipments to raise the prices/profits on them too. Look out for low priced 22 LR ammo it's probably a 40 rd box instead of 50rds. Short packaging has come to the shooting arena! just like the 10.5 oz (pound of coffee) can
(On the science channel CCI can make 14 pallets of 250,000 rds of 22 LR ammo per day and they have at least one ammo plant here in the US)
@stevetwilson1984 @Corey A Why are the firearms and ammunition manufacturers laughing any more than any other industry that is seeing growing demand for it's products? You have a fairly distorted view of the firearms industry due to your progressive elitist disease. You fear and hatred is palpable in your posts.
They are trying a little at a time. Obama is still trying initiatives though Eos and the BATF. People that live in CA, MA, NJ> and NY have afar less this year than last so we are losing a bit at a time. They cannot muster support for a sweeping ban (though they've been trying to renew the assault weapons ban yearly since it expired) but their goal is clear: ban all civilian ownership eventually.
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