Why Green Tip M855 Ammo is Not Armor Piercing | ITS Tactical
 

Military Ammunition and Why Green Tip M855 is Not Armor Piercing

By Bryan Black

M855/SS109 5.56 Ammunition (Green Tip)

Over the weekend I attended the final hours of my NRA RSO (Range Safety Officer), Rifle and Shotgun Instructors training. While I won’t get into the NRA’s embargo on the word “weapon,” or that a few instructors freaked out when I carried a firearm with the muzzle pointed at the ground, I did learn something from our readers on Facebook I’d like to share with everyone.

Throughout my time in the Military, I’d always referred to M855/SS109 5.56 Ammunition (Green Tip) as armor piercing rounds or AP. For the life of me I can’t recall where I first heard that mentioned, but it was fairly common for it to be referred to as that.

One of the final taskers for the NRA courses was to construct a training aid and you’ll see a photo below of what I put together.

Armor Piercing?

M855/SS109 5.56 Ammunition (Green Tip)As you’ll see, I have the green tip marked “AP Tip,” which is how I explained my training aid to the class as well. (If you’re wondering, it was made from a cardboard tube, floral foam, paint and a little creative thinking).

After a few people pointed out that M855 isn’t AP in the Facebook comments of the photo I posted, I started doing some digging. It turns out that sure enough, M855 was removed from the ATF’s list of AP rounds. I haven’t been able to track down when this change took place, but I thought it was important to share to all those that have considered M855 to be AP rounds like I did.

While having a Steel Penetrator Tip, this doesn’t constitute M855/SS109 as “Armor Piercing.” The round was designed for increased penetration at longer ranges to combat SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) issues though.

Things may or may not be clearer once you read how the Federal Government defines AP ammunition in 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17).

Definition

(17)(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

What does all that mean?

A few things to take note of is that the classification as “armor piercing” is for bullets only, not the complete cartridge. Despite the mention of handgun caliber above, you can take that to mean that it’s a round that has been made as a handgun caliber at some point.

The bullet (projectile) must also have a core made entirely out of the metals listed above, or be a full jacketed bullet with a jacket weighing more than 25% of its overall weight. This means that the SS109/M855 bullets wouldn’t be covered, as their cores are partly steel, and partly lead. Lead isn’t listed in the metals above. Furthermore, as you’ll see in the list below, the ATF has specifically stated that the SS109/M855 bullets are exempted from AP status.

ATF AP Classified Rounds

  • All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo
  • Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core
  • German made 9mm Para. with steel core
  • MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet
  • BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition
  • 7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP
  • PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (not copper)
  • OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core
  • 7.62×39 ammo with steel core bullets

ATF Exempted Rounds

  • 5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with steel penetrator tip.
  • .30-06 M2 AP ammo

Hopefully that clears up some confusion for you like it did for me. You can rest easy that when a range calls for no AP rounds that you’ll be safe using M855 if desired. If you’re in the market for ammo, be sure to check out our sponsor Lucky Gunner for great online ammo prices!

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Discussion

  • ssggfield

    They have a steel core not “tip” I have dug plenty of these cores out of shoot house walls. Although I have heard multiple reasons why this round was adopted, one being that it was able to punch through combloc soft armor and helmets better with the steel core. It doe’s how ever not fragment as well as M193.

    [IMG]http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv189/ssggfield/steelcore003.jpg[/IMG]

  • Peter G.

    I really wouldn’t assume that these rounds are safe on “NO AP” ranges. The laws of man bear no particular relationship to the laws of nature. Always ask the rangemaster.

  • Jasper Pettit

    So, wait… The .30-06 M2 AP rounds that the NIJ uses to test Level IV plates isn’t considered armor piercing by the ATF. That seems odd to me.

    • Joe O

      Oh ATF considers it AP. The key word here is EXEMPT. The listed AP ammo is the stuff that’s not allowed to be sold to regular (non gov’t.) folks. M855 and .30 M2 ball (great round) are exempt because of their use in NRA High power/ service rifle matches.

  • Matthew Baxter

    I stopped using Green Tip ammo after having sever malfunctions with it. The most serious being a round got caught between the bolt face, the gas Key on the carrier and the top inside of the receiver. It took my gunsmith 2 hours to get it out because he had to take the barrel off since the BCG was partially in the buffer tube preventing a normal breakdown. The gunsmith said he has only seen this 3 other times in his 30+ year career and every time it was from Green Tip

  • Wayland

    In addition to the steel core segment not composing the entire core, it also isn’t hardened in most M855. Please note that each DoD M855 source (Lake City, Olin, IMI, Privi Partisan) produces distinctly different M855. Primarily the differences in bullet construction are worthy of note. Thicker jackets, harder lead, and different weight distribution of the core can greatly change the wounding effect, among other things.

    It is worthy of noting that M855 will generally not penetrate any barrier that M193 will not penetrate inside of 100yds. The increased barrier penetration at distance has more to do with energy retention, sectional density and stability differences. The steel has more of an impact due to stability changes from moving the projectiles center of mass rearwards.

    If your range cannot safely handle M855 inside of 100yds, your range isn’t safe with M193 either. And the difference at distance isn’t spectacular.

    If I wasn’t posting from an iPhone and lazy, I’d provide more info on M855.

    Wayland.

  • chris

    We’ll see how well this goes over with my GMC next time I’m at the range.

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  • Will

    Not for use on steel plate targets. Still fails the magnet test.

    • Kirk Hall

      I have made many IPSC steel targets out of ar500 steel (1/4″ thick)
      Works fine on my targets… just expensive

  • Zachary Gomrick

    I’m an active duty U.S. Marine. The green tip rounds we are issued for our M16’s are simply 5.56 FMJ BALL rounds. Completely standard issue, nothing special about them. If it has an ORANGE tip, it is a tracer round, and BLACK tips are armor piercing. Make sure you know the difference if you buy Milsurp ammunition. Hope this clears things up.

  • olle

    this article was pretty good up until the very end:

    ” You can rest easy that when a range calls for no AP rounds that you’ll be safe using M855 if desired. ”

    the ATF AP definition is intentionally doctored to exclude ss109 simply because of the ramification of slapping all that regulation on our armed forces bread-and-butter bullet. a range master doesn’t give two sh*ts about that. he cares about his establishment and fact remains that the m855/ss109 does what it design to do – punch through barriers and wears out backstops far better than a conventional lead core bullet.

  • Ghillieman

    Zack, fellow devil dog here, the 5.56 ball you are issued with the green tip does have a partial steel core in it. Next time you go to a live fire range take a magnet with you and touch it to the green tip, remember that only ferrous metals, like steel, are attracted to magnets. Also, when your at the rifle qual range and your pulling butts look on the ground by the impact berm. Those little steel cores are all over the ground, they look like tic-tacs.

  • bill

    I’ve tested 855, 193, 7.62 NATO, and 308 win fmj head to head at 25m in steel and aluminium. In 3/8″ thick steel plate 193 and 7.62 MEN94 left craters the same depth of about half the thickness of the plate, the 855 left the same crater but the steel penetrator continued on poking out the back. 308 150gr fmj blew straight through. The steel penetrator tip is a cone the size and shape of the green painted portion, it seems to go twice the distance into every medium I’ve put it in compared to the rest of the bullet and m193. The crater is same between the two til the 855 comes apart then it leaves about a .17 cal hole beyond that point.
    So it may not do what black tip ap will do but it does do more than std ball. We were surprised that it out penetrates 7.62nato (smaller hole though).
    I’ve never encountered a range with ammo restrictions, but from what I’ve gathered about them they use a magnet to test. M855 have steel and will fail that test just like Russian lead core ammo which has a bimetal jacket attracts a magnet and isn’t ap. Not all that attracts magnet is steel core and not all that is steel core is ap. But I think the rationale for those rules is fire danger, I’ve seen vegetation catch fire multiple times from steel projectiles, they spark on rock and steel.
    As for hardness the penetrater in m855 is far harder than the mild steel core in Russian 7.62x54r surplus which mushrooms similar to lead at over 300m, 855 retains It’s shape, unless it hits stone.

    • Dave

      Excellent analysis Bill!
      These are the tests that silence those who speak much & know little about SS109.

  • Murph

    Murph from Polk City FL. Do I have any friends out there? By the way, unless you are using a tac sling that lets you drop your carbine or rifle on your chest, using a muzzel dwn ASfrican carry is faster then a muzzle up carry…Murph

  • mlwartman

    while they are not AP, they make a divot in a steel plate twice as deep as a standard FMJ

  • Frank E Paton III

    The M855 will still penetrate a 1/4″ steel plate

  • bill

    The new m855a1 is likely to be classified as ap, it has more steel and the lead has been switched to copper.
    It’s suppose to penetrate better and yaw more reliably, although that seems to be counter intuitive, you can’t argue with results though. I just know from 4″ thick aluminium that standard 855 goes through, while steel core surplus 5.45 x 39 ( which is noted for yawing) goes sideways and stops in alittle over an inch. So It’s interesting to hear it does both…though 5.56 fragments rather than staying together like 5.45, so they aren’t quite comparable I guess.

  • Stephen Forrest

    I went 10 years in NSW and didn’t see a “bolt over” until about two years ago. Running a range one day we had three in three different weapons. Yes, one you know how it is an easy fix.

  • Chuck_Finley

    The way it was explained to us when we transitioned to the M16A2 waaaay back in the good old days, the M855 & M856 rounds were developed with a steel core post to better stabilize the bullet when fired from the newer M16A2/M249 which were designed with tighter 1-7 barrel twist ratios over the older M16/M16A1’s looser 1-9 twist. The older M193/M196 round could be safely fired (though with some reduced accuracy) from the newer M16A2, but the M855 was not recommended for use in the older series of rifles.

  • bill

    The general rule (some guns may stray), is the heavier the bullet and the shorter the barrel the faster the twist needed to stabilize the projectile.
    With 223/5.56, 1:12-14 is good for upto 50gr, 1:9 for 55-69gr, 1:7-8 for 62gr & up. The m16 started with 1:14 and either 52 or 53gr(can’t recall which) but soon changed to 1:12 & 55gr. Then 1:7 & 62gr came with m4. 1:9 is the most common civilian Ar15 twist rate.
    It’s always been about balancing accuracy and tumbling, stabilized bullets are accurate but over penetrate and don’t yaw or tumble causing cavitation. Heavier bullets penetrate and stay on course better at distance.

  • Clark

    I am not an expert on this, but have personally seen kevlar panels used in AV’s that were fully penetrated by M-855 ammo. These same panels stopped 7.62 x 39mm rounds, but did not stop 7.62 x 54 mm rounds.

  • Cal30M1

    Is 30-06 ammo, WWII vintage with black tips considered “AP” rounds? The bullets weight is approx 163gr. I have fired them at a piece of steel, 11/16″ thick, at 200 yards. The copper jackets are stripped off and the center core completely penetrates the steel. When I picked out some of the cores in the sand, the tips were amazingly still sharp, I actually use the cores as a center punch with a 1/2″ piece of cold rolled steel and about a 1/4″ hole drilled in the end to hold the AP core. In the 70’s I shot NRA High Power with these rounds because they are considerably more consistent than the M2 ball ammo with 150grain bullets.

  • Maxheadspace

    What about the M855A1, which is the improved M855, but seems to have a solid piercing core?

  • gasserwillys

    re; your coment of people freaking w/ muzzle pointing down . I was riding w/ a Ranger in his truck in Nebraske he told me ” I’d rather rep[lace a transmission that try to replace a head.”
    Dave

  • Douche

    Bill, you’re an idiot. The green hills formula is not in question here, the AP qualification by the ATF is the focus of the article. Don’t give gun nuts a bad name by being a dumb ass.

    • Douche Terminator

      @DoucheDon’t be an A$$

    • bill

      Hey douche, try reading from oldest to newest before joining a conversation. Sometimes it’s better to stay silent and let others wonder about your level of intelligence, rather than speak and remove any question. My comment was an expansion and clarification of Chuck Finleys comment, which is relevant to the topic… but then some people must live up to their name…

  • glock1

    All the information you posted may be true, but that doesn’t change the fact that the ranges won’t let you shoot them. All green tipped 5.56 ammo is banned at my range and other ranges I have checked on the internet.

    • ReadytoRumble

      @glock1 Indoor ranges, right?

  • Core

    You shouldn’t shoot SS109 at armored steel targets it will damage and eventually penetrate them. It will go through mild steel targets 3/8″

  • belkrem

    Fyi the steel core isnt in the tip its throughout the entire copper bullet the green is just paint

  • Jason

    Military AP ammo is black tipped.

  • references???  Something linked to the BATF website would be a little more reassuring.

  • Franky Haze

    The benchmark for AP rounds is piercing 1″ thick stock steel. The M855 will put one hell of a dent in it and will penetrate up to 85% of the way but not go through. The M855 will pierce a level III-A vest but with aLevel III-A Vest and Level IV Ceramic Rifle Plates it will take 3 rounds before piercing just FYI…

  • MarcelAKuemmet

    Interesting. We have shot through (well not through, but enough to disable a Vehicle) various engine blocks with Green Tipped SS109’S.  Seemed to work.  
    There is a post on FB and I was thinking the vehicle could have been stopped with the old “One shot through the engine block”.
    Then one shot into the perpetrator. 
    What is your opinion on this?
    Thanks ahead of time
    RLTW!
    https://www.facebook.com/CopBlock/photos/a.306193338188.151724.281961363188/10152789638743189/?type=1

  • TrixOnU

    The real problem with the ATF definition and regulation is it is used to restrict liberty.
    Did not think Nato 7.62 AP was used in a handgun, if not, then why is it listed as AP?
    Such designation may be violation of the regulation which specifies handgun use.  
    Note: 5.56 Nato is now being used in pistols.
    Soon with Eric Holder types as AG it could be designated as AP and banned.  
    Don’t you just love how the government protects your liberty?

    • 333enfield

      @TrixOnU That’s the problem and I suspect a trick the ATF is using.  If any of this ammo can be fired from a newly manufactured AK / AR / Whatever your choice of long rifle in a pistol format than they can then go about saying its fireable from a pistol and therefore ban it.  I had a suspect feeling a long time ago that all these long rifles made into pistols would come back to bite us.

    • I hadn’t heard this and I’m surprised that the NRA NGOA and countless other organizations haven’t called attention to this. This is a direct attempt to disrupt ammo supplies using bureaucracy. The only thing consistent about the BATF is change which only reinforces the fact that bureaucracy is a problem and not part of the solution. I saw this one coming though with the increase in ar pistols and the attention the brace brought to that fact. Everyone needs to comment on this and spread the word. This is yet another over reach by the BATF and this administration to limit your second amendment rights. Thanks very much for bringing it to our attention Patriot.

    • stevetwilson1984

      333enfield You are right, the second Sig and others started making useless handguns down to 5.5″ barrels, it was coming. And what are you going to do with a 5.5″ AR?

    • rattlerjake

      333enfield – You’re totally wrong!  First of all, the ATF is an illegal government agency, secondly, the ATF has NO authority to restrict handguns, rifles, ammunition, magazines, etc.  All of the laws that are enforced by that agency are unconstitutional, but the people (our parents and grandparents) have “allowed” these socialists to restrict our liberty and it is up to us to get rid of this government and get rid of these bullshit agencies and their unconstitutional laws!

      It absolutely makes NO DIFFERENCE whether a round can be fired from a rifle or handgun as to it’s legality.  The ATF, rest of government, media, and all other libturds are laughing while gun owners are nitpicking over worthless information.  It’s the same thing with “assault weapons”, who cares what it is called, any and all laws restricting the people from owning them is unconstitutional, but with every new report or article the same stupid argument, about the term “assault weapon”, comes out.

      Until we stop whining about what they are doing or not doing in Washington, and organize, and then physically descend on D.C. and ALL of the states, simultaneously, in force, fully armed and take ALL of the known socialist/RINO politicians, and agency heads, into custody and institute a new government of STRICT CONSTITUTIONALISTS, we are just spinning our wheels and allowing the left more time to rob us and control us!  We should have done this when Ovomit was first allowed in office illegally, and NO ONE in Washington stopped it!  They have ALL violated their oath to this country and the Constitution..

    • Nihonto

      rattlerjake 333enfield 
      So in other words, no government, government agency, law enforcement agency, Congress, Senate,  nobody, has anything to say about anything that’s made, imported, sold, or given away, as long as you like it and want it? There’s a word for that. It’s called delusional.

    • rattlerjake

      Nihonto rattlerjake 333enfield – Delusional is YOU, who thinks that anyone has the right to dictate your life; it’s obvious that YOU do not have any idea what LIBERTY is!  Laws are to punish those who violate the rights of others or their property.  Preventative laws, prevent NOTHING; if they did then there would be NO CRIME!  Criminals will do as they please – they have NO consideration for the rights of others, if they did they would be law abiding.  If our system of justice was harsh, as it should be, crime would nearly cease to exist.  But instead, punishments are merely an inconvenience to the criminal.

      There are only certain limitations that I would agree are necessary, and that pertains to WMD, as it has absolutely NO useful function other than WAR or prevention of war.

    • gsuburban

      rattlerjake 333enfield  Yep and just try to tell them they aren’t right.  They have the revenue thus the power to corrupt any one who wants to oblige them. Including cops, court and judges.

    • paleophlatus

      @TrixOnU 
      Would not a standard 5.56 NATO round in a pistol create a helluva muzzle blast, without replacing or at least reducing the standard military ball load?  Reminicent of Cowboy and Indian days, when your pistol and rifle could use the same ammo.

  • WillBagwell

    Im not sure about the rest of you but if I fired anything designated ss109, which stands for armor piercing by the European countries that designed the round on the range, they would throw me out in a second! From my experience those rounds will go threw 4-6 inches of hardened steal and come with a severely hardened steel following tip, no penetrating steal rod. Ive taken them apart, seen the hardened tip. I have also shot them through the front of bull dozer blades like butter and all the way through 2 to 4 inches of car rims. They might not be complete AP rounds but I wouldnt want you firing them on my range!
    http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/hist_ss109.html

    • bill

      I’m guessing it was a typo you meant mm not inches or you mixed up 5.56 x 45mm with your 30 × 173 mm DU tests, j/k… had a good laugh though, that would be something to be able to take out any tank before the Abrams with an m4… we wouldn’t need such expensive toys as the javelin or JDAM’s we could balance the budget finally…

    • Jimth

      You’re kidding…right?

    • It takes 4 to 6 inches of hardened skull to make a comment like that. Bulldozer blades and car rims are not hardened steel nor anything in any close comparison to 4 to 6 inches of it… M855 is a penetrator round with some ap capability. It is not an ap round by us military standards. The military trials found it lacking to be able to consistently penetrate auto glass at glancing angles… and if the tree huggers have their way we’ll have nothing left to shoot but steel because every thing else is going to be considered an environmental hazard. The fact that the m855 has a lead core with a steel tip is exactly why it doesn’t qualify as an AP round under the title referenced. To be an ap round it needs to be made entirely from a list of specific materials. Lead is not on that list. So if lead isn’t on the list it can not be made entirely from the materials on that list. Since the only definition of what an ap round is, that matters, is the legal definition, according to title 18 sec. 921a17Bi,ii, M855 fails both tests in material composition and that it wasn’t designed and intended to be used in a handgun.

  • bill

    There’s a lot of harsh debate on comment board, most of it revolves around the definition of AP. The issue is there are three different definitions and each has its legitimate areas of concern, 1- performance, 2- batfe, 3-range master.
    I understand peoples concerns over range masters opinions, as many are limited to these few select places to shoot and they make the rules. Those rules are so wide ranging that the author shouldn’t have made a blanket statement about allowance. I have 4 ranges within 30mi and none have such restrictions. But… One says no 50cal, no rapid fire(subjective). Another says paper targets only. Another is no centerfire on black powder silhouettes(regardless of bullet type), but are fine with you bringing your own to shoot.
    Some range masters can be rather over bearingly anal about their views. I once got a royal butt chewing for leaving my AK on safety, unloaded, mag removed, pointed in a safe direction to check my target because I didn’t chamber flag it. When I tried explaining with an ak it’s either open bolt or safety you can’t do both, he threatened to ban me if I said another word. So I get the animosity in this regard, as 855 will fail a magnet test regardless of facts or reasoning.
    The batfe definition is important for your supplier, but is mostly bureaucratic and political, not based in any logic. It is still an important talking point in the realm of the erosion of freedom and increase of government control though. The Soviet 7n6 was placed on banned AP status last year because of a mild steel core, even though the Soviets ditched it for lack of penetration, replaced with 7n10(hardened) and then 7n22(carbide) which performs more like m855. The decision was purely a baseless power grab, as 7n6 only penetrates 1/3 what m855 does and is actually out penetrated by lead core, hellatious wound channel though.
    The performance definition though is the mark that I and our military judge by as it is based in physics, fact, logic, and data, not emotion and opinion. This is what we should strive to hold everyone accountable to. Std ammo is designed to inflict trauma through fragmentation or expansion, AP is designed to stay intact through a hard target. 855 is a fragmentation round with decent penetration.
    My intent for this long rant is to counter the fact that the general public is disadvantaged by trillions of dollars in marketing research over the past century by govt, industry, and media to manipulate the masses with emotionally charged language, whether to sell them stuff or be obedient servants. We all often find ourselves using their words which just proliferate their supporters, words such as “assault”,”armor piercing””gunman”, etc. The more people in the know use proper terminology the less on the defense we are of our freedoms. With cows there is a phenomenon where they irrationally run into a burning barn because it’s where they always seek shelter. People have irrational knee jerk reactions emotions, they steer us this way . People need to recognize this magicians slight of hand misdirection so they can step back and think objectively for themselves.
    When CNN reports “gunman with assault rifle using AP ammo” scaring misinformed citizens, we should call a murderer a murderer regardless of deadly tool, separate gun from man as the man did it. We should always be making them comfortable with practical modern arms, not just after tragedy. Since their measure of AP is soft vests, dismiss it with the fact any deer round does that. Or the next round of nonsense “you don’t NEED…” pushes will be for ammo, after all it’s not “reasonable” to be able to perforate a vest…

    • MikeBrafford

      @bill The bad guys don’t go buy $1000 pistols. This is a silly argument. They could make regular armor piercing shells for far cheaper in the normal 9mm or .45 cal range.

  • bill

    In my tests I posted on here I should mention I used a 16″ carbine… A 20″ would likely go through 3/8″ mild steel.

  • DeggzChoquette
  • David W
  • c berntsen

    what the hell is going on are we going back to black power ? nuts people we need to unite and stop obama the anti christ and take him out of office i just cant belive a usa police or anything else would go against us think people is hitler back in power

    • rattlerjake

      c berntsen The majority of police are nothing more than puppets of the bureaucraps. They will do as they are told as long as they get their paycheck.  It’s the same with the majority of Americans, they go along and won’t make waves because they worry that their perfect little life will become difficult.  The biggest mistake that our founding fathers made is that they required ONLY the President to be a “natural born citizen”, instead of ALL of those who would work in a government or state position, as well as our military who even allow foreigners to serve.

  • jackcrabb6

    People sure like to spend a lot of time arguing semantics, statistics, ballistics and the like. But there is one indisputable fact. The US Government DOES NOT WANT YOU TO HAVE WEAPONS! This includes politicians of BOTH parties.

  • JustCause

    See what happens when you try to make sense of the ATF? They prove your efforts to be futile by demonstrating even more ass-hattedness.

  • paleophlatus

    Gee, by definition, .223 is too small to fit the definition of an AP round, it appears.  Also, as most any guy who has ever owned a .223, or .222 rifle knows, it’s hollow point round will poke a hole in a 1/4 inch steel plate and make a significantly raised bump on the backside of a 3/8 inch one at 50 yards.  Don’t try it standing DIRECTLY in front of it, however.  Give yourself a little ‘edge’ to avoid the jacket, which can come back and hit you!

    • BartKatz

      paleophlatus Agreed.  I have sample steel plates to prove it.

  • DocMathis

    The issue is not whether or not it is really armor piercing. It is all about gun control! So stand by for more interesting arguments and keep your guns and ammo ready to rock when the SHTF!

    • Jimth

      DocMathis Not real sure what ap 556 would be good for anyway. It aint gonna take out an M1 Abrams. I see it goes through a car door. I think you got it right…it is not about ap ammo…it is about any ammo. This appears to be a start.

    • DanielRayl

      DocMathis They did this to 5.45 by 39 the AK74’s cheap round just a few months back this is about not letting  we the people get to strong  but so far its been a back fire for them Obama is the best gun sales men in our long history lol oh and don’t forget operation chock point

  • duck762

    just read on FB feb15 2015 ATFBE has just made m855 illegal.. Its now considered AP ammo

  • Jimth

    DocMathis Not real sure what ap 556 would be good for anyway. It aint gonna take out an M1 Abrams. I see it goes through a car door. I think you got it right…it is not about ap ammo…it is about any ammo. This appears to be a start.

  • Charles Easter

    The comment period on this subject is STILL open on the BATF site, anyone who does not “At Least” go there and comment, has little to say if it goes through.

  • elieazar

    I. PUBLICPARTICIPATIONATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015.ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments. Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):ATF website: [email protected] the instructions for submitting comments. Fax: (202) 648-9741.Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN:AP Ammo Comments.FOR FURTHERINFORMATION CONTACT:Denise Brown, Enforcement Programs and Services, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226; telephone: (202) 648-7070

  • Charles Easter

    The 220 Swift will punch through more real Armor Plate than a AP 30-06.

  • Wyo

    Did I read 18USC sec 921(a)(17)(C) from above correctly that it is the Attorney General that makes the determination if a round is Armor Piercing and NOT the BATF?

  • Ammodawg86

    I was an 55B/89B ammunition specialist in the Army for 10 years. We never distinguished M588 as armor piercing. The round itself may go through a plate of body armor, but not because of the steel tip encased in the round. It is the velocity of 3600 fps that allows the round to penetrate armor and not fragment. The round was designed not to fragment upon entering the body of an enemy. The round literally is meant to ricochet, usually off a bone of an enemy upon entering its body and exit on a different trajectory than it came in at to cause more damage internally to the enemy. This whole classifying the round as AP is just a way to limit the amount of ammunition for the civilian sector and drive up the costs of shooting for sport and hobby.

    • Ammodawg86 Thanks for adding your comment!

    • pete perry

      bryanpblack Ammodawg86  screw the proof reading you know what he meant this guy  is  spot  on  I was witness to this fact that is what the bullet was suppose to do  I seen a guy shoot himself below the hip  it came out just above his ankle   when that bullet hits it tears hell out of flesh.

    • rattlerjake

      Ammodawg86 – Mr. ammo specialist, it’s M855, not M588; if you’re going to tout your professional background and claim to be an expert, try proof reading your comment before posting, duh!

    • Ammodawg86

      rattlerjake Ammodawg86 true, I will remember that in the future. Thank you @rattlerjake

  • mamalukino

    Please contact ATF concerning this matter. Please be mature. Copy your legislators. Join the NRA and the GOA (NRA legislative clout; GOA NO compromise attitude). Get active in support of the 2nd Amendment. VOTE.

    Thanks to MAC on YouTube for the addresses and the sample letter.

    ATF email: [email protected]
    Fax: (202) 648-9741.

    To whom it may concern,
    I am writing to voice my strong opposition to the proposed change to current law that would make it illegal to manufacture, import or sell on the open market M855 / SS109 ammunition.
    The claimed purpose of this change is to “protect the lives and safety of law enforcement officers from the threat posed by ammunition capable of penetrating a protective vest when fired from a handgun”.
    As the Technical Branch well knows, all rifle ammunition of a common caliber such as .223 / 5.56 is capable of penetrating threat level IIA and IIIA body armor regardless of the firearm that is used to fire it. M855 / SS109 is no more of a threat to law enforcement than M193 or Horandy VMAX loads are.
    It’s also worth noting that rifle caliber pistols are rarely used in violent crime, their usage is a statistical zero for all practical purposes, which further begs the question as to why this proposed rule change is being considered.
    Banning the availability of affordable surplus ammunition under the false pretense that it’s in the name of officer safety is a clear violation of our 2nd Amendment rights.
    Thank you for your time and consideration,
    FULL NAME
    CITY / STATE

    • rinaldo jonass

      mamalukino Well said … I’ll be using this and passing it on to my friends!  thanks, rj

  • Jaws

    I thought that standard military issue 5.56 was green tip. This is the first I have ever heard of standard NATO rounds having any AP capability. I was always taught that ‘black tip’ was AP and ‘orange tip’ tracer etc. When we would field day brass on the range’s i would always find disfigured and shredded copper bullets that had impacted other than the target. There is nothing armor piercing about green paint over copper. I have also seen an M4 fire 14 rounds of green tip into a SAPI plate with no penetration. Anyway I learned this stuff in the Corps…am I that off base? For the life of me this seems like a hoax or the result of an intentional attempt to gouge ammo customers. Thanks.

    • rattlerjake

      @Jaws – One thing that this illegal and unconstitutional law will cause is everyone with green tip will remove the green paint, how will the ATF know the difference then?

    • Jaws

      rattlerjake rattlerjake I
      guess they won’t need to know the difference if it is banned out right.
      Not a weapons expert by any means but a black tip AP 5.56 is tungsten
      core. A green tip 5.56 NATO is steel core? So is a .223 also steel core?
      I understand they are slightly different. MILSPEC vs SAAMI is that
      correct? Is any bullet can shoot through a car door considered armor
      piercing? 3/4 inch thick steel? A certain level vest? Barrel length and
      velocity come into play greatly too. Please feel free to edumicate me if
      I’m way off base. Thanks

    • It isn’t and won’t be illegal to own it. It will be illegal to manufacture for sale or import it for sale to civilians. No need to remove the green paint but once your supply is gone there will be no more and of course our military and LE will still have it but we civilians won’t be able to buy it surplus so most likely any surplus will be destroyed, distributed to LE or sold out of the country. Thats more of our tax dollars wasted and more ammo going to the black markets or foreign governments and further militarization of law enforcement disproportional to the general population.

    • rattlerjake

      Corey A You’re ASSUMING!  When California, Connecticut, etc. banned magazines that hold more than 5 rounds (or whatever it is), it didn’t grandfather anything, it immediately made anyone who owns them criminals.  Same with some of the gun laws in New Jersey, New York, etc.  These anti-gun turds don’t give a rat’s ass if you already own what they ban.

    • I am not assuming anything. I actually read the framework document which the BATF is using as a basis to ban this ammunition. In that document they affirm the fact that is is now legal to own and it will still be legal to own by federal regulations even if banned for manufacturing to civilians. I suggest everyone read the document because if you do you will see how they are slanting the facts in order to justify banning it and are in fact making law by doing so. The BATF can not make laws they can only enforce existing laws. Their interpretation goes far beyond the written law and they are actually redefining legal terms that are already clearly defined within the title referenced.

    • b0baganush

      On the other hand the constitution has a nice little part about ex-post facto “after the fact”. Even if they do ban it they technically cannot take it from you. Doesn’t mean they won’t try though…

    • BartKatz

      rattlerjake If they are serious they will take samples and cut them up and also test fire them.  They test fired my confiscated wallet holster and when they returned the pistol gave me a copy of the lab reports.

    • Kunick Arms Training

      rattlerjake A magnet.

    • stevetwilson1984

      Kunick Arms Training rattlerjake You saved me some time with the magnet comment 🙂

  • beltsr

    Though I have heard of M855 being called armor piercing, when I went to small arms instructor for the Navy, we were taught that, in the case of M855, the “AP” stood for “anti-personel” instead of “armor piercing” because the core was not all steel but steel and lead, as mentioned in the article. Good explanation though. Thank you!

  • If penetrating a car door is the criterion for AP, then just about all ammo could be banned. FYI I’ve tested penetration of various materials with different calibers and bullet types. For one test I used 1/4 inch diamond plate aluminum which was easily penetrated by .22 (either from a handgun or rifle) and by 9mm with no trouble. A .45 wouldn’t go through, so I guess we’ll all be encouraged by the Emperor to carry a tame, non-AP 1911.

  • ghh6532

    It is ap. Read the statute. B/c 556 is a hunting or sporting caliber it is exempt. Section c in ur little print out

    • stevetwilson1984

      @ghh6532 It was until Sig and others started making them in 5.5″ barrel hand guns…

  • mkmayhall1967

    So ISIS can have AP ammo but we can’t? I guess I had better put a few cases back before they declare them illegal.

    • stevetwilson1984

      mkmayhall1967 ISIS should only be shot with 7.62mm or above… just an opinion of mine.

  • TimmyOut2c

    Due to the recent (Feb 15, 2015) decision by the ATF to remove the exemption for M855 ammunition, the green tippes 5.56 rounds are NOW considered “armor piercing.”
    Some ammunition that was previously exempted as “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes,” specifically 5.56mm constituent projectiles of SS109 and M855 cartridges, will again be regulated as “armor piercing ammunition.” Except as provided by law, no person may manufacture or import such ammunition, and manufacturers or importers may not sell or deliver such ammunition. ATF will maintain the exemption for 30-06 M2AP cartridges.    (Full memo here:  http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf)

  • TimmyOut2c

    Due to the recent (Feb 15, 2015) decision by the ATF to remove the exemption for M855 ammunition, the green tippes 5.56 rounds are NOW considered “armor piercing.”
    “Some ammunition that was previously exempted as “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes,” specifically 5.56mm constituent projectiles of SS109 and M855 cartridges, will again be regulated as “armor piercing ammunition.” Except as provided by law, no person may manufacture or import such ammunition, and manufacturers or importers may not sell or deliver such ammunition. ATF will maintain the exemption for 30-06 M2AP cartridges.” (Full memo here:  http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf)

  • TimmyOut2c

    Due to the recent (Feb 15, 2015) decision by the ATF to remove the exemption for M855 ammunition, the green tipped 5.56 rounds are NOW considered “armor piercing.”
    “Some ammunition that was previously exempted as “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes,” specifically 5.56mm constituent projectiles of SS109 and M855 cartridges, will again be regulated as “armor piercing ammunition.” Except as provided by law, no person may manufacture or import such ammunition, and manufacturers or importers may not sell or deliver such ammunition. ATF will maintain the exemption for 30-06 M2AP cartridges.” (Full memo here:  http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf)

  • FightTheATF

    If you want to stop the AR-15 ammo ban the deadline to submit opposing comments is March 16th!
    #FightTheATF
    You can sign the letter, spread the word, and join the fight at: https://FightTheATF.org/stop-the-62gr-m855-ammo-ban/

  • mkmayhall1967

    We all know there are many fights ahead to defend our rights. Having said that I would suggest you all contact your representatives and voice your opinion in a calm,clear, manner and hope our system works in our favor on this issue. In the mean time purchase as many as you think you need. I personally have a couple hundred and will put them aside for when or if needed. If the time comes that they are the opposing force will bring plenty of mil spec rounds with them to re supply from.

  • ColdDeadHands

    “The M855A1 was able to penetrate 3⁄8 inch (9.5 mm) of steel plate at 300 meters. The round even penetrated concrete masonry units, similar to cinder blocks, at 75 meters from an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle and at 50 meters from an M4, which the M855 could not do at those ranges.” Aberdeen Proving Ground media day May 4th 2011. So perhaps there is confusion about whether they are talking about the A1 round or the older version of the M855. That said, 3/8 inch of steel at 300 yards I would consider amour piercing.

    http://www.army.mil/article/56157/

  • VoiceofReason966

    Yes, I also called them armor piercing while I was in the
    military, my first exposure to them was prior to 1986 but even after that, we
    referred to them as armor piercing.  In
    1986, the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act (LEOPA) amended the 1968 Gun
    Control Act (GCA).  The ATF exempted the
    green tip ammo (removed the armor piercing status), because when LEOPA was
    passed there were no hand guns that could fire that ammo, more than single shot
    (I’m sure some enterprising gunsmith or handy man created a custom one but none
    were commercially available).  The currently
    changes will apply to the SS109 and M855 rounds, not .30-06 because of LEOPA.  The important point here is the language of
    the LEOPA; armor piercing does not apply to rifles, only handguns. 
    Personally, when I go deer hunting I do not use green tip .223
    ammo, it doesn’t make sense to me (muzzle velocity is what I pay attention to
    since I’m concerned about accuracy).  I
    have a hard time being too wrapped up in conspiracy theories, so I have only
    stated verifiable facts to this point.
    Opinion: This is the biggest step the big bad, wildly evil administration
    has done to “limit our Second Amendment rights”; classifying and ammunition
    that most military people refer to as armor piecing, as armor piercing.  I am tired of paying through the nose, when I
    can get it, for ammunition due to unreasonable and fabricated crises. I can
    tell you that I have had a heck of a time buying ammo (.223, .22, 9mm, etc.)
    and have had to pay a premium because of the numerous scares and outright
    falsehoods, many perpetuated by the gun industry and NRA.  In the firearms area, gun makers and
    ammunition manufacturers have gained the most from the current administration’s
    last six years in office.  Guns owners
    and hunters such as myself, have paid the price of this manufactured issue.

  • Nihonto

    Bull! I don’t care what anyone does or does not classify SS109 as, I’ve burned enough of it to know. Fire it at a grade IIA Kevlar vest one time and see what happens. OR, fire M855 out of a rifle at a 1/4 ” mild steel plate and watch what happens behind. Of course it’s AP.

  • Kunick Arms Training

    Stay on focus here.  Armor piercing or not, they are proposing a solution for a problem that does not exist.

    • Nihonto

      I’m perfectly focused.. The issue as far as I can see, and as evidenced by other responses is if the the ammunition specified is or is not an armor defeating round.. Possibly you should consider re-calibrating your focus.
      Kunick Arms Training

    • gsuburban

      Nihonto I’m thinking they are discussing Body Armor vs. armor piercing steel plates. They don’t state what “armor” but it appears to be much about body armor the authorities wear, those vests but these idiots want to call them “armor” maybe trying to cloud the truth and outlaw all armor piercing.

    • Nihonto

      Possibly so. As others point out, if greedy gun makers hadn’t felt compelled to make a handgun that fires this round, it would give nobody the excuse for any regulation.

    • stevetwilson1984

      Kunick Arms Training Stay on focus here. When the gun makers made hand guns that use this ammo, they screwed us all.

  • stevetwilson1984

    One of the criteria for the SS109 is penetrating 3.5mm of steel at 600m. This problem only arose from the greedy, unscrupulous gun makers that started making AR-15 Pistols. They said we will make our money now and hope the lobbyists can bail us out. I just did a quick search, and found 62 AR-15 pistols with barrels from 5.5″ to 10″, and no shoulder stock.
    They burnt themselves. If the AR only came in 14″ and longer, I do not think we would be having this problem….

    • stevetwilson1984 I am replying to your post, but I am not directing this specifically towards you.  I think a lot of people are getting this all confused, arguing if M855 is or isn’t armor piercing ammo based on this or that spec, or this or that result, or in comparing it to any other round with equal armor penetrating capability.  The only definition that matters in this case is the legal definition.  And the legal definition of AP ammo is spelled out in the referenced title in this article.  According to that text, M855 is not defined as armor piercing ammunition because it was not designed primarily to be used in a pistol, and it is not made ENTIRELY of the materials listed.  It also has lead as a primary component. If it is made from a material which is not listed, it can not be made entirely from the materials listed. Therefore, it never required the waiver that the BATF is threatening to revoke and that revocation is their basis for banning it.  The fact is that this ammunition is not armor piercing as defined by the very title they are referencing to ban it.  And that people, is what you all need to focus on primarily.  Also, using the BATF’s own reasoning and logic that they themselves used in the Pistol Stabilizing Brace case, using M855 in a pistol would be redesigning it by using it in a wy in which it was not designed or intended for.  So even if M855 was AP (which it is not by legal definition) until you actually put M855 into a pistol, it can not be considered to be designed for a pistol.  And they therefor logically should not summarily make all M855 illegal just because someone MIGHT put it into a pistol, just as they couldn’t find reason to make the Pistol Brace illegal, just because someone MIGHT shoulder it.
      Those points, along with the fact that M855 is in fact widely used for sporting purposed, (and has never to my knowledge ever been used to shot a police officer from a pistol) makes this whole proposal a mix of fiction and farce.
      The most reasonable and logical ruling that could be made is that AP ammunition can not be used in a pistol and if it is, you would then be breaking the law.
      What they are doing is intentionally declaring one of the most popular forms of 5.56 ammunition illegal based on their own definition and not the law, and ignoring the actual written law declaring that they somehow know the intent of the law was different that the way it was actually written.  That my friends, is a very dangerous place for them to go and if it is not challenged, they will continue to do it on a much more grande scale.
      Beyond all that, M855 is widely used for sporting purposes, and primarily as rifle ammunition in that application, and therefore even if they someone stretch the legal definition to make it AP ammo, it should still qualify for the waiver for sporting purposes.  They can not justify that it should be banned simply because it might be used to commit a crime while being used in a pistol.  The statistical evidence does not support that position in any way.  In fact, it only supports the position that millions of law abiding citizens use this ammunition every day in a legal way and to ban it would infringe their rights to keep and bear arms.

    • stevetwilson1984

      Corey A stevetwilson1984 
      The biggest problem is that the whole 1985 law has a preface of common sense, as part of it’s interpretation. That trumps the wording of certain sections. If a bullet like this will go in one door and out the other of a police car (it will sometimes if it doesn’t yaw), then in common sense, it is armor piercing. That is fine though since the bullet is only used by rifle.
      Then some bonehead manufacturers decide to start making handguns for it. Potential 30 round armor piercing pistols. Tell me you did not see the writing on the wall when they started making these?
      I know a five to ten inch pistol won’t get the velocity to penetrate a car or body armor, but that really does not matter due to them having the right to say that armor piercing is in a handgun.
      You should each write a letter to all the yahoos like Sig and the others that made useless AR pistols, with the most likely of likely outcomes being the ban on the SS109/855.

    • stevetwilson1984 Corey A Can you reference the preface you mention, what part of the title is this, and how does it legally trump the specific legal definitions within the law itself?  Is this a part of the law that isn’t codified?
      I agree the writing was on the wall, and quite frankly I felt the ruling on the pistol stabilizing brace was done intentionally to increase AR pistol popularity and sales in order to further justify this ruling.

    • Charles Easter

      stevetwilson1984 Corey A “Useless AR Pistols”…but if one puts a stock on it, then you have a “Useful” short handy rifle…WTF is the difference, the gun is the same length give or take an inch or so, fires the same round, holds as many rounds.  If a criminal wants one they are free to make one.  This is ALL about Control by the Feds, and they cannot have complete control as long as the People are armed…PERIOD, it has NOTHING to do with this “Armor Piercing” BS.

    • stevetwilson1984

      Charles Easter 
      Then you have a little stubby .22 with less power than a .22 mag rifle. That is useful (Sarcasm). So again, you have made a useless pistol that only brings about an ammo review. You can say it is a great big conspiracy theory, the MAN is out to take all your guns. I can say the reason this happened is because people started making stupid little pistols out of them and took “Sporting Use” out of them. You would use a 5.5″ AR for deer hunting?

    • duck762

      stevetwilson1984 Charles Easter  no place in the 2nd amendment says you right to own guns has anything to do with hunting..

    • 1bigcheesehead

      duck762 You are absolutely correct.  “When I became chairman of the Subcommittee on the Constitution, I hoped that I would be
      able to assist in the protection of the constitutional rights of American citizens, rights which have
      too often been eroded in the belief that government could be relied upon for quick solutions to
      difficult problems.
      Both as an American citizen and as a United States Senator I repudiate this view. I likewise
      repudiate the approach of those who believe to solve American problems you simply become
      something other than American. To my mind, the uniqueness of our free institutions, the fact that
      an American citizen can boast freedoms unknown in any other land, is all the more reason to resist
      any erosion of our individual rights. When our ancestors forged a land “conceived in liberty”, they did so with musket and rifle. When they reacted to attempts to dissolve their free institutions, and
      established their identity as a free nation, they did so as a nation of armed freemen. When they
      sought to record forever a guarantee of their rights, they devoted one full amendment out of ten to
      nothing but the protection of their right to keep and bear arms against government interference.
      Under my chairmanship the Subcommittee on the Constitution will concern itself with a proper
      recognition of, and respect for, this right most valued by free men.”  ORRIN G. HATCH,
      Chairman,
      Subcommittee on the Constitution.
      JANUARY 20, 1982.(pg.IX)

    • duck762

      stevetwilson1984 Charles Easter  a stubby 22 has worked quite well for the mob killing people…so yes it is useful it can save your life or do bad things like any other weapon.

    • duck762

      stevetwilson1984 Corey A  police car doors are NOT armor….they are made just like my f250…just metal and plastic..

    • Super 68 is DOWN

      Corey A stevetwilson1984 
      Except they changed the wording to, “May be used” in a pistol

    • gsuburban

      Super 68 is DOWN Corey A stevetwilson1984 BATFE wants to classify the ammo as “armor
      piercing,” making it unlawful to buy once a ban is in effect. The
      cartridge has been exempt since 1986 largely because it wasn’t seen as
      one used by criminals. But with the new popularity of AR-style pistols,
      that opinion has changed, though BATFE has provided no evidence it has
      been used against police. It is accepting public comment through March
      16.

    • Super 68 is DOWN

      gsuburban Super 68 is DOWN Corey A stevetwilson1984 
      WHat’s the point of public comment? They ask for public comment on how to implement the ban not to resist the ban based upon their nonsensical wording

    • 1bigcheesehead

      Super 68 is DOWN Well if you don’t voice your opinion, then there isn’t a point.  If you do and they don’t listen, then you did your civic duty, but you should also contact your elected representatives, the President, and post your comment on any public forum you can.  Public outcry has much more impact than any government agency will ever admit to, and the responsibility to object to any infringements on our rights and personal liberties falls only on our shoulders, no one else will defend them if we don’t.

    • Except that only applies if it is AP ammo which M855 isn’t by the definition in this title. They can’t use circular logic to say because it’s AP and may be used in a pistol. If it doesn’t meet the definition ofAP it doesn’t matter if it can be used in a pistol.

    • mkmayhall1967

      That is why law enforcement asked for the classification and not an outright ban.I f anybody thinks 5.56 of any type won’t penetrate the kind of police vest most worn then you are insane to begin with

    • stevetwilson1984

      mkmayhall1967 Ignorance is bliss, but waving your dirty sock by making 5″ AR’s will make people sit up and take notice. Fight the man. I NEED a 5″ AR-15 like nobody’s business…

    • stevetwilson1984

      mkmayhall1967 Just kidding. I could really care less about 5.56 anyway, but do thank the manufacturers that got it banned for you.. If it ain’t 6mm BR or 7.62mm or above, who cares?

    • Super 68 is DOWN

      stevetwilson1984 mkmayhall1967 
      Steve Wilson, whilst I understand your sentiment, the fact remains the AR15 variant is the most popular rifle in the United States and thus the SS109 and M855 is a popular and economical round. Up until 3 weeks ago I was getting Turkish SS109 $10.00USD for a 30 round box. Now it is gone
      However the devil is in the details friend as they also make AK pistols firing the 7.62 round They also make an AR pistol firing the 6.8 Grendel and let’s remember the BATFE has changed the wording from designed to be fired out of a handgun to “May be used in a handgun”

    • duck762

      Super 68 is DOWN stevetwilson1984 mkmayhall1967  NEVER let your guard down. anti-gun politicians will stop at nothing to end gun ownership..EVERYONE in the USA that loves FREEDOM should join the NRA. why?because when the 2nd is gone the 1st is next and so on…FACT

    • gsuburban

      Super 68 is DOWN stevetwilson1984 mkmayhall1967 This is all about bait and switch, the usual practices.  Every .223/.556 cartridge will go through body armor. The entire argument by the Feds is that this M855 is body armor penetrating. What they don’t say is, all 223/556 is penetrating all types of body armor. So, the excuse to outlaw M855 is the fact that it penetrates body armor.  How stupid.  With that, it is simple they are twisting the matter to get what they want. Those pistols have nothing to do with the arguments they have made.

      If they can do this, all rifle ammo will fit the “body armor penetrating” idea which could lead to all ammo that can will be outlawed.  That would be more than half the ammo on the market.  It’s senseless to listen to the jerk offs in Government. They all remind me of student body groups in High School looking for the popularity contest.

    • 1bigcheesehead

      gsuburban Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct, and if unchecked that is exactly what they will do.  Eventually all rifle ammo will fit the “body armor penetrating” criteria and it will be banned.  Because if they can rewrite the law once to fit their interpretation, they will certainly keep doing it.  This is what “fundamentally transforming America” really meant.

    • duck762

      stevetwilson1984 mkmayhall1967  that’s a selfish attitude that supports gun control on your neighbor because it doesn’t affect you. This is why the NRA only has 5m members out of around 100m+ gun owners. The people that don’t join the NRA are selfish because they don’t think it affects them because they only own a deer rifle or shotgun..EVERY GUN OWNER SHOULD STAND UP AGAINST ANY GUN CONTROL CRAP..

    • stevetwilson1984

      Corey A Corey beating the dead horse… It is larger than .220 caliber and is a steel penetrating round. Thank the pistol makers for our fate.

    • That’s like blaming a car manufacture for a speeding ticket because they for built a car that is capable of breaking the speed limit.

    • DocMathis

      stevetwilson1984 Police car doors are not armor by any means of the imagination. Having the same round used in an AR15 rifle in an AR15 pistol has nothing to do with the armor piercing ability of the round. A 44 mag is also a pistol and will go through both sides of a car door. What is the difference between an ar rifle and pistol? This whole thing is about gun control. One step at a time they are trying to disarm us. They can’t take our guns so they will take the ammo. They are starting with the ar15 steel tip because they believe they will get the most support stopping the so called ASSAULT weapon ammo. It is all a bunch of bullshit.

    • rattlerjake

      DocMathis stevetwilson1984 This is no different than how they created hysteria over weapons by calling them “assault weapons”, now they use the term “armor piercing”.  Libturds create hatred by using words and redefining those words.  Racism, radical, profiling, discrimination, etc. all do the same thing, they create a problem that doesn’t exist, then libturds create laws to punish those who engage in the fictitious actions.

    • stevetwilson1984

      DocMathis stevetwilson1984 You are welcome to your conspiracy theory. The real problem came about from idiots turning AR-15’s into handguns. Simple.

    • Charles Easter

      stevetwilson1984 DocMathis BS, have you been in a CAVE?  ALL, of the main Anti-gun people have said their REAL plan, if they could get it through, would be TOTAL DISARMAMENT OF ALL CITIZENS.  That is not “Theory”, it is FACT.

    • stevetwilson1984

      Charles Easter
      Yeah, they really crammed it down our throats after Sandy Hook and Aurora… 15% support in congress, only the most wacko dems supported it. What are you so scared of?

    • Charles Easter

      Scared of nothing, Prepared and Fighting for Freedom, what are you doing besides making stupid comments? My AR “Pistol” has a 10.5 inch barrel, will take out deer at 200 yards, and is accurate enough to make head shots at 250 yards. BTW, it is not very concealable, but broken down will fit nicely in a backpack…. The whole reason for its construction in the first place. I’m done with the LibTrolls here…Enjoy!

    • stevetwilson1984

      @Charles Easter With your magic eye-bolts staring it down at the same time, you are what set back gun rights all the time, and what they count on for CRAZY responses to post in papers? Retired Naval Officer, You?

    • duck762

      stevetwilson1984  never give up anything…gun control is all about control..yes they didn’t ban any guns.why because it didn’t pass but they are trying all the time..if they cant take your weapon they’ll make it so you cant feed it..

    • bucky

      stevetwilson1984 Charles Easter , sandy hook was fake, ariel footage showed people walking in circles , they were actors and no one died, I read an article a while back saying the fbi and obamas administration admitted it was all about changing laws for a gun grab, pretty sad when your government is lying and making up fake attacks to steal your gun rights

    • DocMathis

      Charles Easter stevetwilson1984 DocMathis That may be so but there are less roadblocks for them by going after the ammo rather than the guns. So for you to cry BS is just a bit outside.

    • danilushka

      DocMathis Charles Easter stevetwilson1984 They will still fail in this back-door gun ban (guns with no ammo are useless and that is their plan). The courts  and Congress can see right through it. They are not fooling anyone.

    • DocMathis

      stevetwilson1984 DocMathis Simply not so!

    • danilushka

      stevetwilson1984 show me where in the 2nd Amendment it mentions pistols versus rifle. I’ll wait ( a long time I have no doubt). Who are you to decide what it means when you are biased so? No one and no right. So just stop it.

    • danilushka

      stevetwilson1984 DocMathis Show me in the Bill of Rights,[email protected], where is allows citizens to bear arms EXCEPT for pistols that can fire a rifle bullet no matter how impractical such a pistol would be (and is for that matter as no one has shot a LEO with one yet). You go ahead. I’ll wait (rolls eyes).

    • danilushka

      stevetwilson1984 DocMathis Steve, it isn’t a conspiracy theory when two days later the ATF chief says they consider ALL 5.56 ammunition a threat to law enforcement. They just started with Green-tip because they could stretch their definition (changing the rules) to start with it. This is a back-door attempt to eliminate AR-15s from civilian use by going after the ammo since AR-15 bans have failed. It is nothing less. It is pushed behind the scenes by Obama and Holder. The ATF didn’t make this up all by themselves.

    • 1bigcheesehead

      danilushka I agree, the BATF is but a pawn.  In my experience in dealing with the BATF for tax stamps and such, is that most of them are gun owners themselves and they have no interest in doing anything more than what the law requires them to do.  This agenda of bureaucratic rewriting or reinterpreting of the existing laws with the sole intend to try to ban ARs or ARs through ammo, comes from the top down.

    • TexianSoldier

      1bigcheesehead danilushka  Well folks, the FACT of the matter is this..between Oblowjob and Hitlerry, We The People are in for one HELL of a FIGHT…LITERALLY..if we are to RETAIN OUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHT to OWN and CARRY ARMS OF OUR OWN CHOOSING, AT OUR OWN DISCRETION, AS SOVEREIGN BEINGS, for OUR DEFENSE, the defense of our FAMILIES, FRIENDS, and OUR SOVEREIGN REPUBLIC!!! 
       
      Here in the Sovereign Republic of Texas, anyone calling themselves a TEXIAN PATRIOT is 150% PREPARED TO FIGHT to retain that GOD GIVEN RIGHT!!  GOD GAVE US THAT RIGHT…MAN/GOV’T DID NOT, THEREFORE…ONLY GOD HAS THE RIGHT/AUTHORITY TO TAKE, REGULATE, OR RESCIND THAT RIGHT!!!

      Here in the Sovereign Republic of Texas, WE TAKE OUR ABILITY TO ENGAGE THREATS TO OUR SAFETY, LIBERTY, and FREEDOM, VERY SERIOUSLY!!  IT IS OUR RIGHT to have the ABILITY to ENGAGE THREATS, both DEFENSIVELY, and WHEN NECESSARY…OFFENSIVELY WHEN THE SITREP WARRANTS IT.  WE WILL NOT, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES..relinquish our GOD GIVEN RIGHT to OWN, CARRY, or DEPLOY ARMAMENTS in the DEFENSE of our LIVES, LIBERTY, PROPERTY, and REPUBLIC.  THIS WE WILL DEFEND TO WHATEVER LENGTHS NECESSARY!!

      Folks, y’all need to adopt this attitude EVERYWHERE across North America, IF YOU ARE TO REMAIN FREE!!  Don;t forget WHO BACKS OBLOWJOB, and HITLERRY!!  These are the same U.N./GLOBALIST/ELITIST SCUMBAGS who PAY TO STAGE INCREASINGLY MORE HORRIFIC, GUN RELATED CRIMES, MASS SHOOTINGS, ETC. THESE SCUMBAGS SPREAD THEIR WEALTH, SO THAT THEY CAN REALIZE THEIR ULTIMATE DREAM….A DISARMED, AND UBER-MANAGEABLE CIVILIAN POPULATION!!  These are ASSCLOWNS with last names like BLOOMBERG, GATES, SOROS, BUFFETT, and the STOMACH TURNING LIST GOES ON!!  THEY HAVE THE CASH to BEND THE PUBLIC OPINION, AND PUBLIC POLICY TO THEIR WILL.  HOWEVER…their CASH can only go SO FAR!!  

      If WE THE LEGALLY BORN/NATURALIZED PEOPLE STAND against the FRAUD, and DECEPTION that THESE ASSCLOWNS PAY FOR, USING ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who’ve been GIVEN DRIVER’S LICENSES in states like KALIFORNIA, and then TOLD TO VOTE DEMOnCRAp!!  Which these ILLEGAL SCUMBAGS GLADLY DO, since they KNOW that they’re PROTECTED, and that they’ll become part of the ENTITLEMENT SOCIETY, and YOU and I WILL BE FORCED TO PAY FOR THESE PARASITES via OUR TAXES.

      Here in Texas…WE TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY, and WE’RE DOING  SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!

      WE WON’T CODDLE ILLEGAL SCUMBAGS HERE!!  WE WON’T GIVE THIS TRASH A DRIVERS LICENSE!!  WE WON’T ALLOW OUTSIDERS TO DICTATE OUR IMMIGRATION OR GUN POLICIES TO US!!  I WOULD SUGGEST TO THE REST OF THE CONTINENT, TO TAKE ON THIS SAME ATTITUDE…..DON’T MESS WITH TEXAS!!

    • vis2cmt

      DocMathis stevetwilson1984 Agreed.  Additionally, the .357 Magnum was initially developed to give law enforcement a handgun that could defeat automobile “cover” and ballistic vests (body armor) in use at that time.

  • gsuburban

    None of the reasoning is of any concern. The senators simply want to
    ban another item in firearm arena.  AP or not, they want this ammo gone.
    It could be just that simple that they got it wrong, AP or green tip is
    AP, for a reason.  To reduce the number of .556 / .223 supplies,
    nothing more.  Using the “green tip” idea as a lever.

  • gsuburban

    Corey A:

    That might be dangerous for them but last time I looked, they don’t care at all about that.  The entire point is they want .556mm and .223 ammo to get scarce and less of it.  I guess they forgot that people can reload and shop in another state/country etc. Last time I looked, it’s illegal to commit murder or attempted murder using any kind of gun so, I wondering if the target cares much what ammo is being used.  I guess the only target that might care is a Government senator traveling in an armored car.

  • duck762

    just FYI… many 1000’s of m855 rds for sale on GUN BROKER . COM… asses have bought it up and are selling it for as much as 1dollar a round…

  • ATF standpoint


    From the perspective of law enforcement, however, the most relevant intent is that of a criminal who seeks to use ammunition capable of penetrating body armor when fired from a handgun. If ammunition containing the metal content enumerated in section 921(a)(17)(B)(i) can be used in a handgun—the type of firearm most frequently used by criminals whom police officers encounter on the streets—then, from the law enforcement perspective, the manufacturer’s intent that the ammunition be used for hunting or target shooting (in rifles or handguns) becomes irrelevant. The mere availability of handguns capable of using the ammunition made of the enumerated metals creates the potential for diversion to criminals who could use it in easily concealed firearms to defeat the protective vests worn by police officers – the exact officer safety concern targeted by LEOPA. Contrary to the industry’s position, law Framework for Deciding Sporting Purpose Ammunition pursuant to 18 USC 921(a)(17) enforcement representatives focused on the intent of one class of potential consumer group — those criminals who pose the greatest threat to law enforcement. 

    from 
    http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf

    • ATF standpoint Criminals don’t care about laws, they will simply use an illegal SBR or pistol with AP ammo, (real AP ammo, not M855) even with your framework. The only people you are affecting is millions of law abiding citizens, not the criminals, but you know that already.  This is simply a part of a systematic attack on our 2nd amendment rights, and like all things in thiis attack, “safety” is  being used to circumvent liberty.

    • Ed

      ATF standpoint What you’ve stated is how I read it too in the proposal. This is all because someone can now by an AR15 “pistol”, or “handgun” without NFA tax stamps. Thus, allowing this ammunition to be used in a “handgun”, and according to LEOPA 1986, that now negates its primary use as sporting rifle ammunition. 

      What’s also even more concerning, is the language they propose to change in the LEOPA. Changing form ammunition “designed to penetrate”, to “may be used to”. This opens the door to ban of all ammo used in AR15 “pistols”. Which means any ammo used in the AR platforms.

      Please correct me if I’m wrong here. Also, the person who has the last say in this is AG Holder, and I just wonder what he is going to do. It will be his last action before leaving.

    • HoneyboyWilson

      @Ed ATF standpoint It sounds like these AR15 “pistols” are the root cause of the proposed ammo ban. Since there are relatively few of these pistols around compared to the number of AR15 rifles in use, it seems like banning these AR15 “pistols” would best serve the AR15 sport shooting population.

    • gsuburban

      HoneyboyWilson ATF standpoint Better to leave it alone. Those anti-gunners just can’t factor that the human race has it’s problems, not the ammo and gun industry. 

      Their theory is no different than outlawing Ford Trucks because they tend to be the ones that have the most kill numbers or injury numbers. I wonder if they think the same for those in the army who have the most kill shots too.

    • HoneyboyWilson How about we just ban people from killing other people except in self defense?  Oh wait, that is already the law?  So how does banning any type of ammunition fix the problem at all?  It doesn’t.  Criminals don’t care about laws.  The only people this ban affects, is law abiding citizens.  No guns or ammunition should be banned from law abiding citizens, that’s why there is a second amendment which states that very clearly.

    • HoneyboyWilson

      Corey A HoneyboyWilson As Justice Scalia said, no right is absolute. Applying the same restrictions to these AR15 pistols that we apply to fully automatic weapons, just as an example, would best serve the large number of people who shoot AR15 rifles, wouldn’t it?

    • danilushka

      HoneyboyWilson No it doesn’t make sense. What makes sense is NOT banning a weapon because it is scary but has not once been used to wound of kill police officer: the AR pistol. Not once and the BATF even admits that is the case. It has never been used to kill a cop. repeated felony gun offenders walk out of jail daily in the country and THAT is the cause fall the pistol deaths, not AR pistols which are too expensive harder to conceal so criminals don’t use them.

    • duck762

      HoneyboyWilson ATF standpoint  how about they ban NOTHING…go after the criminals.22000 gun laws on the books and crime keeps going…

  • Why do some of you keep blaming Senators ??? Yes all Dems are anti gun But this is strictly Traitor Obama’s doing. He couldn’t get a total ban on ALL guns through the Republican house and senate so he ordered the ATF headed by his appointee to start banning all “assault” weapon ammo for any reason legal or not !!! I HATE Republicans BUT we all NEED to vote for a Republican President in 2 years so he can reverse all this TRAITOR has done !!!

    • gsuburban

      @Greg Senators are the reason why this is a subject at all. Diane Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, Harry Reid etc. It’s almost like those folks have nothing else to do but disect the USA with more and more restrictions. There’s a hidden agenda there, believe me.

  • Vince

    I reviewed the FBI’s
    “Uniform Crime Report” posted online at:  
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2013/officers-feloniously-killed/felonious_topic_page_-2013
    FBI data for the 10-year period from 2004 through 2013
    showed that one LEO was killed by a criminal armed with a rifle using the 5.56
    mm cartridge, and that death occurred in 2004.  To put this single death
    over the past ten years in perspective, LEOs were 30 times more likely “to be
    shot and killed by a fellow LEO in “incidents involving crossfire, by being
    mistaken for a suspect, during firearms training, and by a self-inflicted
    firearm mishap” than by a criminal using a rifle and 5.56 mm “armor-piercing
    ammunition” BATFE seeks to ban.

    There is no need to
    ban the surplus/overrun 5.56 mm to protect law enforcement.  We’re in deep
    trouble when any regulatory agency proposes to “ban” anything they
    want to, especially if there is no demonstrated need to do so.

  • Vince

    I reviewed the FBI’s
    “Uniform Crime Report” posted online at:  
    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2013/officers-feloniously-killed/felonious_topic_page_-2013
    FBI data for the 10-year period from 2004 through 2013
    showed that one LEO was killed by a criminal armed with a rifle using the 5.56
    mm cartridge, and that death occurred in 2004.  To put this single death
    over the past ten years in perspective, LEOs were 30 times more likely “to be
    shot and killed by a fellow LEO in “incidents involving crossfire, by being
    mistaken for a suspect, during firearms training, and by a self-inflicted
    firearm mishap” than by a criminal using a rifle and 5.56 mm “armor-piercing
    ammunition” BATFE seeks to ban.

    There is no need to
    ban the surplus/overrun 5.56 mm to protect law enforcement.  We’re in deep
    trouble when any regulatory agency proposes to “ban” anything they
    want to, especially if there is no demonstrated need to do so.

    • Jon Delcus

      @Vince …nope nope nope…in that period between ’03 and ’13 there were 21 LEO killed with .223/5.56.  The single report of 5.56mm was a result of incorrect collation of the raw data and the reports.

    • danilushka

      @Jon Delcus Even so, the number is small overall and the rounds weren’t likely Green Tip nor fired from pistols either. LEO organizations opposed the ban saying no LEO has been wounded or killed with an AR pistol yet.

  • fred 845

    You fools don’t get it. Who has profited from ammunition and gun bans? 1989 US firearms Mfg’s made large profits from the ban of imported assault weapons. 1994 Crime bill increased gun and magazine sales x20. Ammo mfg’s have made big profits from the recent run on 22 ammo.

    • You honestly believe there is an actual demand driven shortage of 22 ammo? You think the ammo companies wouldnt rather just sell more of it to make a bigger profit? Someone is buying it up and limiting supply intentionally to raise the price. And that is either the government or some meddler like Bloomberg… And they are probably using the profits they are making to turn around and buy even more ammo supplies. There is no way demand alone has raised the price this much and this long. And ammo manufacturers are baffled because they know how much they are making and know the supply is out there.

    • gsuburban

      Corey A Agreed. The manufactures aren’t at fault for anything but I couldn’t say the same for the Government. Folks tend to collect when they buy in this sport so there’s a bit of that with all purchases, has been for a long time. Folks who buy ammo today are getting ripped off in price but we can blame that on Government, not the people who own guns. $45 for a brick of .22 long rifle?

    • bayman55

      Corey A  We are being ripped off.

    • stevetwilson1984

      Corey A The manufacturer’s are doing it. They are the new OPEC and laughing all the way to the bank as they have FOX news spread the fear that it is the government, and soon everything will be banned, taken away, etc….

    • Yeah sure they are…

    • stevetwilson1984
    • stevetwilson1984

      Corey A

    • stevetwilson1984  Just what I thought, Troll

    • stevetwilson1984

      Corey A stevetwilson1984 I am sure since 2009 you have been saying that the government is going to have “ALL OF MY GUNS AND AMMO BY NEXT YEAR!!”. Well, it is 2015, nobody is out anything, and gun and ammo companies are laughing all the way to the bank, TROLL.

    • danilushka

      stevetwilson1984 Corey A They are trying a little at a time. Obama is still trying initiatives though Eos and the BATF. People that live in CA, MA, NJ> and NY have afar less this year than last so we are losing a bit at a time. They cannot muster support for a sweeping ban (though they’ve been trying to renew the assault weapons ban yearly since it expired) but their goal is clear: ban all civilian ownership eventually.

    • danilushka

      stevetwilson1984 You’d have said the same thing to the Minute Men, troll

    • Yazembowski

      fred 845 223 isn’t the only caliber, Look at 45 Colt, used to be about $25/50rds now it’s $48/50. What makes that cartridge so expensive? Reeds in Walker Mn says it’s his supplier. I say it’s cowboy action shooters buying up everything in sight, Cases, Bullets, bullet moulds, everything.  Savvy wholesalers, and some unscrupulous dealers, are holding back making prices and consequently profits, soar.
      Also, MFGs can make up to 3.5 MILLION 22 LR rounds A DAY – that’s 17.5 MILLION rounds a week! 9.1 BILLION rds per year!!!!!   (CCI isn’t the only 22LR mfg).   Where the hell are all those rounds? I surmise that the wholesalers are hoarding/Holding back shipments to raise the prices/profits on them too. Look out for low priced 22 LR ammo it’s probably a 40 rd box instead of 50rds.   Short packaging has come to the shooting arena! just like the 10.5 oz (pound of coffee) can
      (On the science channel CCI can make 14 pallets of 250,000 rds of 22 LR ammo per day and they have at least one ammo plant here in the US)
      JUST SAYIN!

  • That is pure BS. Middlemen made the profit not the manufacturers The price of m855 today has no connection to the price that was paid for it to the manufacturer. If this ban goes through it will hurt all manufacturers of m855 here in the us and other countries that export to the US. Only those who have government contracts will survive. It’s the government driving up the cost, not the manufacturers. Without interference from gun grabbers the price of m855 had just finally fallen to pre-Sandy Hook prices. So it was time for Obama and his cronies to create a new crisis to force prices back up, disrupt supply and distract us all on the Obama care repeal and his illegal amnesty And his lack of any meaningful foreign policit’s and general lack of leadership.

  • duck762

    its the middle man that supplies the dealers with ammo jacking up the prices.but it doesn’t help that people buy in bulk then put it for sale on gun broker for triple the price.

    • j467r4

      duck762 All of you with all the experience, do you have any idea what it cost to produce a 22 long rifle vs a 223 round of ammo.  The profit is higher for a 223 than for a 22, so why not produce lesser of something that costs as much and more of what has a higher profit.

  • duck762

    Corey A… I totally agree. go on gun broker dot com.. thousands of rds of CCI 22s that I haven’t seen any place for over a year.they are being bid off at massive prices..no website has any m855 or ss109 at a good price..70 cents around is total BS..gun broker dot com again many thousands of rds being sold big profits.. I just got a case m855 41 cents a bullet 414.00.. on gun broker for same case is as high as 900.00.total BS. I’m hoping people pay it then the ATF doesn’t ban it..

    • BartKatz

      duck762 I see zero bids on the really high asking prices.  So it really isn’t selling for that.

    • duck762

      BartKatz duck762  I agree but my main point was that’s why we cant find it.because people are being greedy.it will sell at some point..
      and in my local gun shop just got 8000rds m855 its over 60 cents rd..

    • walkingjay001

      duck762 BartKatz Some time ago I was standing in line at the local Dick’s sporting goods trying to get 22lr for the guys shooting league, and heard the following ” I don’t shoot, but I have 30,000 rounds in the basement, in case everything falls apart I can trade it for food”  the lowlife got the last bulk pack of 22 on the shelf, and you know things are bad when the league shooters will settle for “bucket-o-bullets” bulk packs.

    • duck762

      walkingjay001 duck762 BartKatz  what an ass.you should’ve spoke up.since he had 30000rds he didn’t need it. Ive got stock piles of what I shoot but I use it..

  • BartKatz
    • BartKatz I don’t believe this pistol is really an issue because it’s not an autoloading pistol.  It’s a break barrel single shot.  I don’t believe this qualifies as a “handgun” for the “designed and intended for a handgun” test under the proposed framework.  I can’t remember where I read it, either in the TItle itself, or the framework document.

    • stevetwilson1984

      Corey A BartKatz  No, these are the kinds causing the problems and the ban.. http://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/diamondback-firearms/db15pb7-223-pstl-7.5in-blk/

    • no I disagree. The problem isn’t the AR pistols because in time that fad would simply fade away and law abiding citizens should be able to buy them and any ammo they can afford. But the ban won’t fade away if it goes into effect. The gun grabbers are just looking for justification to do what they plan to do anyway. They’ll always take the path of least resistance first. This is low hanging fruit. And I’m sure there are a good number of paid trolls working these forums trying to turn us against each other and against the ammo manufacturers and gun selling websites. Divide and conquer is their goal.

    • JonHornung

      Corey A The tested, tried and true method is “shake them up with something big” then “after all the screaming, there would be a CompromisE, ie, look, we will work with you,” last but not least “take what you wanted to take all along, with so many that don’t want to fight for anything say (“go ahead that’s o.k. I don’t use it, have one, want one, care if someone else doesn’t have a chance to have one”). And suddenly we are scratching ours heads trying to figure out how seemingly overnight, everything that was taken for granted is gone.

  • gsuburban

    Seems like were finding out more about why this sudden focus on this ammo:

    Hammond said the timing is not a coincidence.
    “There is a massive backlog of M855 ammunition from NATO, which was
    about to come onto the American market as a result of the fact NATO is
    being encouraged to go from lead to copper ammunition,” Hammond said.
    “This action, if it were successful, would [make illegal] the sale
    and possession of that to individuals in America of this massive
    backlog, which is coming on line from a government surplus.”
    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2015/03/obamas-bullet-grab-sparks-rebellion/#uUJpZJFqIo8OczxB.99

  • bayman55

    A lot of people being ripped off by so called, we stand with you, gun shops and online web sites. Crooks taking advantage of the ammo ban scare, to make big profits.

    • duck762

      bayman55  its the middle man making all the profit. manufacturer sells it to supply warehouses.they jack up the prices so bad at times.my dealer is buying foreign 22s to cell because of how much they want for CCI or other name brands…

  • bayman55

    .22 ammo is NOT that hard to get. They are manufacturing it everyday. Stores and gun shops are holding it back so they can charge you high prices for it, under the guise that it is scarce. Find an employee that is not afraid to talk to you.

    • boomstick2016

      bayman55 THIS IS NOT TRUE! I am the middleman, local gun shop. CCI is in Canada. 22s are being held in customs at the border. The U.S. can’t make enough to stay on top of the demand. I have 21 distributors same as everyone else and its all allocated. As far as mark up, if I can’t get it for what is is suppose to be, I don’t get it.

    • 1bigcheesehead

      bayman55 How do you know “what it is supposed to be” when prices are jacked up all over?  And how do you know its being held by customs at the border?

    • duck762

      bayman55  that’s BS.. my local Walmart hasn’t had 22LR 99.9% of the time for 3 years now.and my local gun dealer only has Mexican or south American junk.. and when he does get good brand ammo its at a high price because distributers are the ones jacking up the prices…

    • silverorange

      bayman55 i work at bass pro shops, we get .22 ammo in regularly. It is the people coming in as soon as we open and buying as much as they can that are the problem, we limit it just for that reason so everybody can get some. They get around this by bringing friends/sons/daughters to buy it for them. We get in buckets of 1600, bricks of 550, 333, 100, 50. CCI, winchester, federal, and another i cant remember right now.

    • gsuburban

      silverorange bayman55 Obviously Bass Pro isn’t ordering enough. I could duplicate the same at any grocery store who isn’t fulfilling the customers needs.  If Bass Pro can’t increase their order quantity, then it’s the middle or maker who isn’t keeping up with demand, just like markets have been for decades. If demand is high, you increase production or else lose on the added sales. If you band together, something folks believe the ammo makers are doing, you don’t expand your production business, you triple and quadruple your prices for doing the same amount of work.

  • BartKatz
    • 1bigcheesehead

      BartKatz Excellent!  But stay vigilant Patriots, they certainly aren’t waiving any white flags, more like they are falling back and regrouping…

    • BartKatz

      1bigcheesehead BartKatz You’re right about that.  Gotta keep the pressure on, no matter what the ATF says.

  • Charles Easter

    To ALL the Idiots who Blame the AR Pistol makers, remember, Ruger made a Folding Stock 13″ barreled Mini 14 called the AC556F, without the stock, it Would be a Pistol.  Ruger began making this gun in 1973, hardly a New Thing.  Enjoy!

    • Rob

      Charles Easter The AC556 in all variations is considered a machine gun.  A machine gun is not considered a rifle or pistol regardless of the barrel length or type of stock, it is considered a machine gun.  The short barreled versions if they were made in semi-automatic only would be considered Short Barreled Rifles (SBR) and not considered a pistol at all by the ATF.  And to be clear Ruger has never made such an animal.  To be considered a pistol, one would have to remove the full auto parts, remove the stock, remachine or even remake the receiver and any other parts in accordance with the ATF so it could not be readily converted back to a machine gun, get ATF approval and file paperwork to remove it from the National Firearms Act (NFA) registry.   So what kind of idiot would ruin a $25000 machine gun to do this?  It is absolutely the fault of manufacturers of pistol versions of ARs and Aks that this ridiculous law allowed the ATF to ban certain ammo.  There is even confirmed evidence that at least one manufacturer made a pistol version knowing that this would happen and did it anyway.  Get your facts straight.

  • JonHornung

    so glad I took up reloading after the last ammo shortage, I thought, damn it’s so easy to yell “shortage” and all of a sudden I’m paying a dollar a round for plinking, F^&*! Seriously, you don’t need to lose your gun rights, just not saving any for a rainy day would be just as effective! just my opinion…

    • JonHornung You are absolutely correct Jon.  Even one of my best friends who is an avid hunter and shooter, said he didn’t care if they banned M855 because he had all of it he needed already.  I just shook my head…  They will always ask for as much as they can get, but settle for anything they can get, because each little bit at a time eats away at the foundation of liberty.  Now is the time for all good men, and woman, to come to the aid of their country.  We are either free men or men who wish to be free, as for me, give me liberty or give me death…

      “Nothing  you see happening in our country today is just ‘Left-Wing insane legislation,’ ” says Savant Noir, a history scholar who acknowledges the insidious dismantling of individual rights hidden in an agenda. “It is, in fact, brilliantly executed. The powers in control know exactly what they are doing and they’re doing it at breakneck speed. While people have been yakking about ‘conspiracies’ for years, or while they waste their time with the latest sensation or hyperbole, this agenda has been marching forward uncontested and unimpeded.” Patriots must become aware of the policies within our country that fall under the category of an overall plan to destroy our way of life while proclaiming it is “sustaining” life.
      What is it?

      Agenda 21, be aware of it.  It comes in forms such as climate change, common core, free trade, open borders and small arms treaty.

      It is all about control, and nothing about freedom or liberty.  Those just get in the way.

      To learn more http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/the-earth-charter-companion-to-agenda-21

      Forget the so called “War on terrorism”, its the all out coordinated war on personal liberty we should all be concerned with.

  • Guest

    George Soros became a billionaire by disturbing markets and reaping the windfalls.
    This recent panic buying /price surge sure fits the description.

    • JohnSC

      @Guest  George Soros is a clear and present danger to the United States of America, and the rest of the world for that matter, and he should be dealt with as such.

  • uknowshitabout balistics

    What a fool, stmmeel head encased in brass to adhere to barrel rifling is my expertise. A 22 mag will travel through both doors of a standard vehicle and remain in motion.

  • jk

    dOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD, you frickin spelt (on purpose) ballistics wrong (notice the two L’s there)

  • Kelhoffer91

    AP stands for Anti-personnel and true armour piercing rounds are M993 and M995 and had a tungsten core. Even the military has trouble finding these rounds and they’re commonly used for M209 SAW because. They usually cost around $2 a round and are linked, unable to be sold to civilians however civilians owning M993 and M995 is not illegal. But if you find it you can expect to pay around $5/round. M885 and SS109 is able to penetrate steel such as cars but we shouldn’t expect it to penetrate steel body armor.

    • vis2cmt

      Kelhoffer91 AP means armor piercing.  APERS means anti-personnel

    • AirborneMP108

      Kelhoffer91 Not sure where you get your information but I thought I’d make a few comments..
      1) AP stands for Armor Piercing, as the other poster mentioned.  

      2) The military has absolutely no trouble finding these rounds however they are not frequently used since the M855 / M855A1 are much more efficient and more effective against “soft targets”. The M855A1 is known as “green ammo” and replaces the lead with copper to make the round more eco friendly but it also out performs the M885 in soft target consistency as well as hard target penetration. 

      3. As far as the M993/M995 being $2 a round and linked, that is not the case.  Both are available as individual rounds on stripper clips and cost less than $1 per round based on the current DOD ammunition catalog.  
      -M855- 24 cents per round
      -M855A1- 36 cents per round
      -M995/M996 linked- 38 cents per round
      -M995 (individual)- 90 cents per round

      4) M993 is not fired in the M249 (we don’t have a “209” SAW).  The M249 fires a 5.56 round, generally a mix of four -M855 and one M856 tracer repeating throughout the 200 round belt.  M993 is 7.62 and is used in the M240B, M24 and “the pig” the M60.   

      John
      -Active Duty Army, M249 / M2 gunner in Afghanistan and Iraq

    • KILAMANJARO22

      AirborneMP108 Kelhoffer91 Thank you for clearing the air on that.  Now, another question.  Black tipped 30.06 as used in M1 Garand stripper clips.  Are they armor piercing?

    • Buzz

      Have fired 30.06 through M-1Garand that will easily penetrate 5/16 306 galvanized steel plate. Have fired (8mm Mauser, K-98) through 5/16 galvanised 306 steel plate, that looks like a steel press punched a hole in it, they are not” classified ” as ” AP”AMMO, but will sure do the ” job” .

  • fastround

    The indoor range where I live (Jacksonville, NC) will not allow green tip 5.56 due to the 25 % steel core.  They are not armor piercing but some data does list them as anti material rounds.  This meaning I believe applies to body armor.  they will pierce body armor.  The indoor range does not allow them because of that fact but doe to the fact that they tear up the steel stopping plates at the end of the range lane.  the latest milspec sheets (2009) do list green tip as armor piercing.

  • fastround

    I have been reading through the last few pages of comments, mostly about not finding 22 cal ammo anywhere. I live in N.C. and it is readily available at most large stores like Dick Sporting goods and Walmart.  they do limit quantity you can buy at each purchase.  Most often they sell in bulk  boxes. I have not seen boxes of 50 in some time.  the smallest boxes are 100’s with most being 200 to 500 round boxes.  There are tons of on line stores that will ship to your home if you live in one of those states that allow shipment to homes.  My favorite is freedommunitions.com.  They sell and ship everything except 22’s.  Prices are really reasonable.

  • cathy reed

    so is there any rounds that you can buy that are AP round for 223 or 5.56

    • rottenrollin

      cathy reed   read my post above yours.  

      To find any or all, go to Gunbroker.com.

  • cathy reed

    is there any place to buy 223.5.56 AP rounds

  • rottenrollin

    I suppose the better penetration of the green tipped round must show up at a distance, as suggested in this article.
    I had already fired 223 rem FMJ rounds through 6 inches of plywood sheets, was ready to see something with even better penetration.  But the main purpose of my experimentation was to find wall material to stop a bullet, for the house.  Conclusion:  I can’t afford whatever it would take. Anyway……..

    Today I fired some 5.56 green tips and some 223 rem copper jacketed, under exact same conditions, 15 foot from target;  target consisted of seven pieces of 9 or 10 gauge steel sheets each set an inch deeper than the one before. So seven sheets of steel with an inch or so between each sheet.

    First I fired a single shot of 223 rem FMJ, which I had already been using in my new AR15, an impressive little weapon.  Fun too!  I went to check penetration, and found a clean small hole in sheet 1, a bigger hole in sheet 2, and a good dent but no penetration through sheet 3.  I then fired 4 more 223 rounds to check for consistent results.  All the same.
    Then I targeted a 5.56 green tip, excited to see how much more penetration I would get.  ZIP.  Exact same results as with the 223 rem FMJ.
    Next experiment will be setting up the same but firing from 100 yards. 
    If 223 FMJ penetrate the same as 5.56 Greenies, I will stay with the 223 and save the slightly higher cost of the green tips. 
    NRA     STAND AND FIGHT

    • 1scottJ

      @rottenrollin Very interesting post and scientific approach to collect information. 
      Did you do a test from 100 yards? I would like to read about your results.

  • TaylorMock1

    Citation needed on “The round was designed for increased penetration at longer ranges to combat SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) issues though.”

    • vis2cmt

      TaylorMock1  This is for the NATO SS109/U.S. M855 cartridge (5.56 mm, Ball, M855 [Green tip])

      1.  Small Arms defense Journal

      DO WE NEED A NEW SERVICE RIFLE
      CARTRIDGE?
      6 January, 2012 · Ammunition,
      Editorials, V3N1
      http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=778

      2.  Glenn Dean. In Search of Lethality:
      Green Ammo and the M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round

      3.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO

      4.  http://www.imi-israel.com/home/doc.aspx?mCatID=68543

      5.  Time for a change: U.S. Milotary
      Small Arms Ammunition failures and Solutions, by LCDR Gary K
      Roberts, 21 May 2008

      http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

  • H2operations

    It would be most helpful if you noted that while the SS109/M855 are not classed as AP rounds they will punch holes thru Ballistic Plates that are not made and tested against these rounds. There is a False sense of security being sold to people when it comes to Personal Armor Products on the market.

  • TyPerry

    SS109 is a 55 grain round and the M855 (A1) are 62 grain rounds. Just FYI. The SS109 was originally desigmed and used for the M16 with 1:12 barrel twist ratio. The M16A1 and later used a 1:7 barrel twist ratio with the heavier grain M855 and later the M855A1.

  • HansDedrich1

    Well patriots, you will soon decide between a fascist America and a constitutional America. Fuhrer trump will surely take away your guns if you don’t kneel to him.

    • benbernacky

      HansDedrich1  what specifically has President Elect Trump done or said to validate your obnoxious statement? Try to focus on the answer and don’t attack the questioner.

    • JosephBurke

      HansDedrich1 Ummm…wasn’t it Chelsea Clinton who said that her mother would use the courts to take away every gun in America if she was elected?

    • Patriot 0311

      HansDedrich1 People like you are dividing this country. Do some research and turn off CNN or CNBC. Trump is trying to return the power to the people. If you are one of the people that realize this and would rather have a communist or socialist country, then maybe there should be a law to keep your kind from owning a weapon.

  • oldsaintnick72

    The green tip marking on 5.56×45 NATO rounds is used to distinguish tungsten carbide core rounds from typical FMJ ammunition commonly used by models of the AR-15, M-416, M-16, M-4, and other self loading rifles using 5.56x45mm NATO rifle rounds. The green tip is not a special part of the bullet. It represents what type of bullet it is. Green tip is a common misconception of thinking the tip is spent uranium. Spent uranium is only used in artillery shells.

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