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Israeli Combat Shooting


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#1 ArkansasFan

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 02:39 PM

So I've signed up to take a course in Israeli combat shooting. Then I Googled it.....


Unloaded chamber and what I deem to be some exaggerated movements. Now, I'm not sure I want to go although the course bulletin makes the course sound interesting.

It's Level 1 of 5, and I'm not really in a good area to participate in tactical shooting exercises short of driving a few hours to Tulsa.

What's mentioned on the bulletin are things I'd like to do and retrain in as that level of training has really been disrupted after a career change and a move.

Oh, well, I'm open. I just wondered if any of you guys were familiar with it.

Edited by ArkansasFan, 14 September 2016 - 02:40 PM.

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#2 Spartan24

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 08:33 PM

I've heard of "Israeli carry" and I'm not a fan. Israeli carry is what you described. Loaded mag, empty chamber.

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#3 B3dlam

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 09:22 PM

Generally, I go into any training with the goal to do things the instructor's way.  Than at the end of training I take what I like and discard what I don't.  Most classes you take wont have enough repetitions to truly build muscle memory so if you don't like something you can discard it without too much trouble.  


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#4 DStevenson

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 05:31 AM

I think B3dlam has it right.  Take what works for you from each class and don't mold yourself around the instructor.

I was fortunate enough to train with a very well known instructor and while I don't question his abilities for a second some of the things I learned in less expensive, less "experienced" classes I felt did a better job based on my personal experiences and worked better for my setup and end goals.


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#5 ArkansasFan

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 07:46 PM

So, I completed the first phase today. I'm not sure when the second phase is.  Generally, it was a good course particularly for a novice.  For those who have spent any length of time combat shooting then it was quite the paradox.  From the empty chamber to the "sling shot" method of racking the slide it took some thinking to complete tasks the Israeli way.  I'd say the most complicated element for me, as it was not only a new skill, a pardoxical skill, and a fine motor skill was using the weak hand thumb to release the slide.  

 

I understand the point of carrying unchambered that they're making, and it really doesn't "seem" like it takes any longer to chamber the round and fire than it does to merely fire, but this is something I can't see myself adopting.  Negligent discharges aren't a major concern of mine.  Getting my weapon snatched and used against me is a minimal concern particularly now that I'm not in uniform openly carrying.  However, drawing, chambering, pointing/aiming/flashing/whatever you're doing, and then firing seems like there's too much room for something to go wrong particularly in a confined space, rain or other wet conditions, extreme cold, or hand injury.  

 

Having said the above, it was a nice cadre and an enjoyable day.  I look forward to advanced training.  


Edited by ArkansasFan, 17 September 2016 - 07:47 PM.

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#6 emBARK

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 09:00 PM

Thanks for the aar.

#7 Spartan24

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 08:32 AM

My beef with Israeli carry is, a lot of CCW shooting reports I've seen, have scenarios where the defender did not have both hands to use for weapon manipulation. Rather, one hand was used to keep the attacker at bay while the other hand drew the weapon.

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#8 DeathwatchDoc

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 09:56 AM

I will always carry with one in the chamber for that exact reason. 


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#9 ArkansasFan

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 10:41 AM

My beef with Israeli carry is, a lot of CCW shooting reports I've seen, have scenarios where the defender did not have both hands to use for weapon manipulation. Rather, one hand was used to keep the attacker at bay while the other hand drew the weapon.


Yeah they went over this. Fight off the attacker, create a gap, chamber, and fire. I am not a proficient hand to hand fighter. I am, however, a proficient handgun operator. My pipe will be hot.
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#10 Psybain

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 03:02 PM

My beef with Israeli carry is, a lot of CCW shooting reports I've seen, have scenarios where the defender did not have both hands to use for weapon manipulation. Rather, one hand was used to keep the attacker at bay while the other hand drew the weapon.

 

That's why you get sights that you can rack your pistol with


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#11 Spartan24

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 06:03 PM

That's why you get sights that you can rack your pistol with


I get that for when one arm is incapacitated. However, in the middle of a fight that is quickly becoming a fight of life and death, I'd rather have the time saved in carrying condition one, rather than losing that time, plus having to find something reliable to rack my slide on. Also, what if it slips midstroke during racking? Now you either have a jam or have to attempt it again, all while keeping a determined attacker at bay. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

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#12 Psybain

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 06:43 PM

I get that for when one arm is incapacitated. However, in the middle of a fight that is quickly becoming a fight of life and death, I'd rather have the time saved in carrying condition one, rather than losing that time, plus having to find something reliable to rack my slide on. Also, what if it slips midstroke during racking? Now you either have a jam or have to attempt it again, all while keeping a determined attacker at bay. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

yeah, I still don't find israeli carry very practical in general


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#13 ArkansasFan

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 07:05 PM

What I noticed over the course of the day after sling shotting my slide 400 times what that my ability to grip was tenuous at best. I get some seriously cold, dead guy fingers in winter and I don't know that I could reliably sling shot particularly if I were moving, etc. Overhand, gross motor movements, yes. I've done it. Also, the whole concept of releasing your slide with your off hand is doable but impractical. And if that's the only way they train that's setting one up for a really bad day. I'm sure they view methods that ultimately evolved from Jeff Cooper equally asinine.

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#14 Psybain

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 07:31 PM

What I noticed over the course of the day after sling shotting my slide 400 times what that my ability to grip was tenuous at best. I get some seriously cold, dead guy fingers in winter and I don't know that I could reliably sling shot particularly if I were moving, etc. Overhand, gross motor movements, yes. I've done it. Also, the whole concept of releasing your slide with your off hand is doable but impractical. And if that's the only way they train that's setting one up for a really bad day. I'm sure they view methods that ultimately evolved from Jeff Cooper equally asinine.

 

I almost always slingshot my slide, but that's just personal preference.


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#15 MightyP

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 08:12 PM

This is the one thing I have never quite understood about how the Israelis do things. You look at Krav Maga, the way they fight wars and even their responses to Palestinian terrorists (You could potentially call that a war too...) and then this. Everything they have is be ready to completely destroy any attacker, unless you have a gun, then you should chamber a round first. Just odd to me.


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#16 tiger-26

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 03:42 PM

If the Israelis have identified a problem set, and this is their solution to it, then so be it. At the end of the day, I think that most people who have something go terribly wrong (or nearly terribly wrong) are averse to anything that might cause that again. I don't know the "why" behind it, but I do think it's more important to rehearse and practice what ever it is we're going to do. I do like B3dlam's comments above - very good point that I tell my students all the time. You don't have to drink the Kool-Aid, but at least take the time to consider it's value to potentially include in your kit bag.

 

Side note regarding ArkansasFan's comment, "My pipe will be hot." All I can think of are the words of Sterling Archer, "are we not doing phrasing?"


Edited by tiger-26, 06 October 2016 - 03:54 PM.

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#17 mackguy

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 07:26 AM

What is "sling shot" of a slide?



#18 ArkansasFan

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Posted 19 October 2016 - 06:22 PM

What is "sling shot" of a slide?

It's using a clue of fingers to pull at the slide in the same manner youd pull a sling shot...as opposed to using the slide release or gross motor overhand release.

I found that interesting and in contrast to the many, various handgun courses I've had.

Edited by ArkansasFan, 19 October 2016 - 06:24 PM.

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